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Hypothetical. All guns dissapear. What happens?

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    No. Damn Sparky, you seem to be having great difficulty with comprehension today. Perhaps you're not getting enough sleep?
    But you said:

    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Hmm, sorry, you're right. But the hypothetical should have been "if they didn't and couldn't exist." The point of the hypothetical is what would the world be like without guns. If you could just manufacture more guns, then there's no point to the question.
    And that means, "if you remove all existing guns it wouldn't make a difference because people would find ways to get new guns"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
      Next time some theist suggests I consider what will happen when I faced his deity after death, I'll refer him to you
      Sure, if you're not capable of answering your own questions, I'll lend a hand.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Magenta View Post
        Yes, it would.^_^
        Welcome to Tweb!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
          First of all, I agree with you that a gun is usually the better choice, but MM IS correct that in certain situations, the knife wins. Myth Busters did a scenario where the person with the knife started within 21 ft of the gun. The knife won most of the time. Now, the parameters were a little sketchy the gun had to start holstered and the knife was already out, so, I would have liked to see them start with both holstered. Now, if the gun is out like the knife, then yeah, I think the test would have been different. Also, I carry my gun with one in the chamber...but the safety is on.

          https://youtu.be/ckz7EmDxhtU
          If (in a hypothetical comic book world) you could only have one type of weapon in your entire life and knives were classified as weapons not tools (you get magic cutting thingies so you don't have to worry about knives as anything other than a weapon) which would you choose? The parameters allow for a halberd, of course and we'll even separate knives and swords into separate categories for no readily apparent reason - but the idea is choosing a single type of weapon to use in a lifetime of possible encounters - or no encounter at all (it's not Mad Max). With no way to know what if any need you would have for it, would you choose a knife over a gun as a weapon?

          And YES, I'm cheating a bit here so I'll go on and concede that there are circumstances in which you would come out better with a knife (professional assassin being one) but I don't think that many would choose knife over gun if they are depending on it as a general weapon and not a specific encounter. After all, you wouldn't take a .22 to shoot elephants (unless you were feeling suicidal) if you knew you were going to encounter an elephant - but life doesn't always give us that much foresight. Expecting squirrels and ending up with a runaway elephant - there's no perfect way to prepare for every emergency.

          I was taught to shoot but haven't picked up a gun in forty + years. Given something automatic with a (relatively) low recoil, I could likely fire it reasonably well with only a little practice. Could I take out an armory? Of course not. Could I kill a lot of people if I managed to get it into a crowded concert hall - you bet. I've actually trained with swordsmanship as well (hey, it's only been 27 years or so). It would take a LOT of practice and conditioning for me to reasonably use a knife as a weapon. Could I take out an armory? If making all the soldiers helpless with laughter counts, sure - otherwise heck no. Could I kill a lot of people in a crowded concert hall? Not unless they are all suicidal and start lining up submissively.

          Gun control is about preventing misuse and intentional violence (and some negligence as well). it's about keeping as many as possible guns away from people who really either cannot handle them safely (toddlers, severely mentally ill) or really will not handle them safely (mentally ill, ill intentioned).

          I don't agree that stricter gun control is necessarily the answer (there might be some areas of improvement) but uniform gun control is a necessary change. One set of Federal laws instead of a myriad of state and local ones. The 'knives kill people too' argument rings hollow - knives are rarely chosen as mass killing weapons for very obvious reasons. There are no drive by knifings. And since virtually no Western countries lack some gun control the 'lookie, they still have murders' argument is completely uncompelling.

          But even gun abolition wouldn't stop school shootings unless it could be 100% effective - guns aren't the cause (they are a HUGE contributing factor to the death toll). We warehouse kids in their own age groups and wonder why we end up with something a little less onerous than The Lord of the Flies. We let them 'blow off steam' by killing virtual people. We treat the victims of bullying as if they should fix it themselves - regardless of how out of control the situation really is. We give them a world of media in which the hero is not terribly different from the villain. We wonder why it goes horribly wrong when they get a weapon and lash out.

          Keeping them away from weapons for the intervening years while we try to fix decades of garbage is only one piece of the puzzle - but it is an important piece. Truth is, we will never know how many kids were just as willing to go on a rampage but were unable to obtain the weapons they needed. A lot, a few? No way to know - but if we don't start caring about the weirdoes and outsiders when they are young enough to help we're not gonna stop these killings.


          End of rant - sorry for getting off track.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

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          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            But you said:



            And that means, "if you remove all existing guns it wouldn't make a difference because people would find ways to get new guns"
            No, it doesn't. You're misreading it. Or you're deliberately taking it out of the hypothetical. In the hypothetical as it should have been stated, guns cease to exist and cannot be re-created.

            In six thousand years of human history, guns have only been around since the 14th Century and modern firearms don't appear until the 17th Century so it's not actually that far fetched.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

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            • I have to admit...I have lost all track of all dissussions in this thread...and have no idea how to respond to any of it...
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I have to admit...I have lost all track of all dissussions in this thread...and have no idea how to respond to any of it...
                Just smile and nod.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  If (in a hypothetical comic book world) you could only have one type of weapon in your entire life and knives were classified as weapons not tools (you get magic cutting thingies so you don't have to worry about knives as anything other than a weapon) which would you choose? The parameters allow for a halberd, of course, and we'll even separate knives and swords into separate categories for no readily apparent reason - but the idea is choosing a single type of weapon to use in a lifetime of possible encounters - or no encounter at all (it's not Mad Max). With no way to know what if any need you would have for it, would you choose a knife over a gun as a weapon?
                  I've shot guns my whole life. I started hunting with my Dad when I was about 10. I have basic and advanced training in firearms (I know more than a couple of LEO's), I have a Weapons permit and shot 247 out of possible 250 qualifying for it. There's no doubt I would choose a gun first. I'm not a big guy, I'm not overly powerful, I'm older and though I'm no pushover, with basic self-defense technics and a stint at boxing, however, a gun is the only thing that stops another gun...no two ways about it.

                  And YES, I'm cheating a bit here so I'll go on and concede that there are circumstances in which you would come out better with a knife (professional assassin being one) but I don't think that many would choose knife over gun if they are depending on it as a general weapon and not a specific encounter. After all, you wouldn't take a .22 to shoot elephants (unless you were feeling suicidal) if you knew you were going to encounter an elephant - but life doesn't always give us that much foresight. Expecting squirrels and ending up with a runaway elephant - there's no perfect way to prepare for every emergency.
                  There are more instances than you would think where a knife would be better actually, but that's not to say I would choose a knife over a gun every time...or vice versa...My guess is for ME, a gun would win most of the time.

                  I was taught to shoot but haven't picked up a gun in forty + years. Given something automatic with a (relatively) low recoil, I could likely fire it reasonably well with only a little practice. Could I take out an armory? Of course not. Could I kill a lot of people if I managed to get it into a crowded concert hall - you bet. I've actually trained with swordsmanship as well (hey, it's only been 27 years or so). It would take a LOT of practice and conditioning for me to reasonably use a knife as a weapon. Could I take out an armory? If making all the soldiers helpless with laughter counts, sure - otherwise heck no. Could I kill a lot of people in a crowded concert hall? Not unless they are all suicidal and start lining up submissively.
                  Given the right circumstances, I would think it would be easy to kill "a lot" of people...(maybe there should be a definition of "a lot"...It's knowing where to strike depending on the stance or sitting of the people in question. The reason it doesn't happen often I'm sure is guns are available...if they were not, I suspect it would be at least tried.

                  Gun control is about preventing misuse and intentional violence (and some negligence as well). it's about keeping as many as possible guns away from people who really either cannot handle them safely (toddlers, severely mentally ill) or really will not handle them safely (mentally ill, ill-intentioned).
                  NO one that I know is promoting handing loaded weapons to children or the mentally ill...so, really, this is nothing more than a red herring.

                  I don't agree that stricter gun control is necessarily the answer (there might be some areas of improvement) but uniform gun control is a necessary change. One set of Federal laws instead of a myriad of state and local ones. The 'knives kill people too' argument rings hollow - knives are rarely chosen as mass killing weapons for very obvious reasons.
                  There's no change that guarantee's in ANY way that guns will not be used by someone to shoot up a bunch of people...What's necessary is for the respective law enforcement agencies to actually use the laws already on the books to keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them.

                  Yes, knives are not chosen for mass killings, but they still are used to kill a lot of people one or two at a time...what continues to boggle my mind is all the attention mass shootings get when it's such a SMALL part of the overall death toll. Yet, the talk all revolves around banning or limiting access to "assault" rifles when according to the FBI UCR (table 12), knives killed four times the people than rifles. Truth be told, handguns kill much more people than rifles ever thought about...probably because they are easier to conceal and transport.
                  But take the most recent school shooting where an SRO stops a gunman before he can kill a lot of people, the laws of Maryland didn't help at all.
                  What DIDN’T stop the recent Maryland school shooting:
                  - Maryland’s assault weapon ban
                  - Maryland’s 10-round magazine limit
                  - Maryland’s universal background check requirement
                  - Maryland’s law requiring an exhaustive application process to obtain a permit to purchase a handgun
                  - Maryland’s law prohibiting the purchase of more than one firearm per month
                  - Maryland’s law requiring handgun registration
                  - Maryland’s law requiring licensing of handgun owners
                  - Maryland’s extremely limited approval of concealed carry permits
                  - Maryland’s refusal to honor any concealed carry permit from another state
                  - Federal law prohibiting handgun possession for people under 21
                  - Laws against carrying without a permit
                  - Gun free zone laws
                  - Laws against discharging a firearm in public
                  - Laws against attempted murder


                  What DID stop this school shooting:
                  - An armed person at the scene who engaged the shooter in less than a minute.

                  There are no drive-by knifings. And since virtually no Western countries lack some gun control the 'lookie, they still have murders' argument is completely uncompelling.
                  You will have to clarify this for me, I'm not getting what point you are going for here.


                  But even gun abolition wouldn't stop school shootings unless it could be 100% effective - guns aren't the cause (they are a HUGE contributing factor to the death toll). We warehouse kids in their own age groups and wonder why we end up with something a little less onerous than The Lord of the Flies. We let them 'blow off steam' by killing virtual people. We treat the victims of bullying as if they should fix it themselves - regardless of how out of control the situation really is. We give them a world of media in which the hero is not terribly different from the villain. We wonder why it goes horribly wrong when they get a weapon and lash out.


                  Keeping them away from weapons for the intervening years while we try to fix decades of garbage is only one piece of the puzzle - but it is an important piece. Truth is, we will never know how many kids were just as willing to go on a rampage but were unable to obtain the weapons they needed. A lot, a few? No way to know - but if we don't start caring about the weirdoes and outsiders when they are young enough to help we're not gonna stop these killings.[/QUOTE]I don't want anyone to think that my arguments here constitute excusing guns deaths...I think the deliberate taking of another person's life, EXCEPT in the case of self-defense, is the lowest criminal act a person can do to another person. Robbing the person of life, and all it's potential is just reprehensible IMO. Yes, we definitely need to find the cause of these shootings and try to prevent them before they start...that should be one of our highest priorities.
                  Last edited by Littlejoe; 03-24-2018, 10:47 PM.
                  "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                  "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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