Randomness and chance or Fractal relationships in Chaos Theory?

[shunyadragon]

Can Randomness and Chance cause the natural evolution of life?

This common banner of Creationists promoting 'Intelligent Design' and claiming natural evolution cannot happen because of randomness and chance in natural events. Is the variation in the outcomes of cause and effects truly random?

What is the relationship between cause and effect and the variation in the outcomes in nature. Can we have the complexity of life we have today evolve from simplicity?

What are the known causes of life and evolution?

Random mutations? Does random and chance occur in nature? If so how?

Can randomness and chance cause anything?

First reference:

[Sparko]

Like I said in the other thread, if mutations are not random but fractal and predictable (fractals are mathematical formulas) then you are proposing Intelligent Design or Creationism. I love how after I pointed out in the other thread that you were using a creationist source, you ran away and started this thread and tried to find a non-creationist source that said something similar.

[shunyadragon]

Like I said in the other thread, if mutations are not random but fractal and predictable (fractals are mathematical formulas) then you are proposing Intelligent Design or Creationism.

No, this scientific view of math relationship described as fractal for the outcomes of cause and effect relationships in nature is simply a matter of fact description based on the objective verifiable observations of nature, and makes no assumptions nor conclusions concerning Creationism nor Intelligent Design. The second source was far more comprehensive and complete documenting the relationship of all macro-world outcomes of cause and effect are fractal and not random nor by chance. This is the point of this thread where many argue for 'Intelligent Design' because the natural explanation cannot explain the randomness and chance of natural events, which in reality does not exist in nature and is not remotely true.

I love how after I pointed out in the other thread that you were using a creationist source, you ran away and started this thread and tried to find a non-creationist source that said something similar.

I gave the two different sources for a reason, because on a rare occasion Creationists get something right. Both sources concluded that the nature of genetics is fractal not random. I also made it clear the Creationist source was selective and incomplete wrongfully concluding that based on this evolution cannot take place. The more complete source clearly explains how evolution takes place in a natural world.

I a started this thread. because we were drifting OFF TOPIC in the other thread.

[37818]

Randomness or chance is a matter of some foundational order. Not the other way around.

[shunyadragon]

Randomness or chance is a matter of some foundational order. Not the other way around.

This needs more explanation before I can respond. For example: Randomness by definition implies lack of a reason, cause nor order. What foundational order are you referring to?

[37818]

This needs more explanation before I can respond. For example: Randomness by definition implies lack of a reason, cause nor order. What foundational order are you referring to?

Randomness is not possible without order. Randomness is always relative to order. Randomness is defined by the apparent lack of order or deviation from order. In other words, there has to be a base order in order for there to be randomness. Randomness of what?

[shunyadragon]

Randomness is not possible without order. Randomness is always relative to order. Randomness is defined by the apparent lack of order or deviation from order. In other words, there has to be a base order in order for there to be randomness. Randomness of what?

First, Randomness is not known to exist in the macro world. Second, if you are talking about the variation in the outcomes of cause and effect events described by fractal math, well . . . the foundation of this variation is grounded in Natural Law and the nature of our physical existence.

[rogue06]

I think that the concept of randomness is often over used and it might be better in many cases to say unpredictable instead since frequently the event is limited by various factors making what happens not exactly random.

[shunyadragon]

I think that the concept of randomness is often over used and it might be better in many cases to say unpredictable instead since frequently the event is limited by various factors making what happens not exactly random.

Of course, individual mutations are not predictable, but the cause of the mutation is known, it is the variation in the natural outcome DNA replication, and limited by natural makeup of DNA. There are many self correcting mechanisms within DNA that limited replication errors, but yes they indeed do occur. Replication errors do not cause evolution. They are part of the process of genetic drift and variation.

[37818]

First, Randomness is not known to exist in the macro world. Second, if you are talking about the variation in the outcomes of cause and effect events described by fractal math, well . . . the foundation of this variation is grounded in Natural Law and the nature of our physical existence.

Randomness is known to exist in the macro world. Galaxies galore.

opo0428b-590x560.jpg

[Jedidiah]

Randomness is known to exist in the macro world. Galaxies galore.

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They may appear random to you, but they are the direct result of natural processes. Thus they are not random but patterned.

[37818]

They may appear random to you, but they are the direct result of natural processes. Thus they are not random but patterned.

All randomness has an underlining order. There has to be order before you can have what is called chaos. Chaos is nothing more than vast complexity of some base order. There can be no randomness or chaos without order.

[shunyadragon]

Randomness is known to exist in the macro world. Galaxies galore.

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This is not an example of randomness. It is simple a picture of a lot of galaxies. Galaxies form by the processes of Natural Laws. Please cite a scientific source that describes randomness as having a cause in the formation of these galaxies in the picture.

[shunyadragon]

All randomness has an underlining order. There has to be order before you can have what is called chaos. Chaos is nothing more than vast complexity of some base order. There can be no randomness or chaos without order.

Again, the objectively observed cause of fractal variation in natural events is natural law and the nature of our physical existence, and there is no observed cause beyond this, but if one 'believes' in God, God is the ultimate cause of everything. This is a question of faith and not the objective verifiable evidence.

[37818]

Again, the objectively observed cause of fractal variation in natural events is natural law and the nature of our physical existence, and there is no observed cause beyond this, but if one 'believes' in God, God is the ultimate cause of everything. This is a question of faith and not the objective verifiable evidence.

Natural law is a name of order.