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Thread: Which Would You Personally Prefer...

  1. #21
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by element771 View Post
    Well I would agree to a point but I think that those are a number of accidents. Initial conditions of the universe that allowed us to evolve and actually contemplate our own existence.



    I disagree.

    1. Religious people celebrate the whole creation not just us.

    2. I think that the cosmic scale is necessary for our existence. Without those initial conditions that give us the universe as we see it, we wouldn't be here. Without the cosmological constant being what it is...our universe wouldn't be as big but we wouldn't be here. Without the billions of years to form enough carbon in stars, we wouldn't be here. etc etc etc.

    I never understood the argument from size as it is only a matter of perception / preference.
    By “the argument from size” I suppose you mean the argument against the existence of God because the universe seems so extravagant? It is. It seems obvious to me that an all powerful God would focus on the thing of interest to Him rather than build the enormous surrounding infrastructure. But if you take the view as you seem to that we evolve out of the whole universe then God has no role except that maybe he lights the fuse or something.

    Size is about a bit more than just perception or preferred scale – it’s about ratios.

    Lately, I tend to think that humans are very unusual because of their intellect and their overdeveloped technologies and so on. It is as if we have outgrown nature itself. This is a defect that will destroy us if we are not careful – which we are not. It is two minutes to midnight by the doomsday clock.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

  2. #22
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    By “the argument from size” I suppose you mean the argument against the existence of God because the universe seems so extravagant? It is. It seems obvious to me that an all powerful God would focus on the thing of interest to Him rather than build the enormous surrounding infrastructure. But if you take the view as you seem to that we evolve out of the whole universe then God has no role except that maybe he lights the fuse or something.

    Size is about a bit more than just perception or preferred scale – it’s about ratios.

    I find a lot of atheists arguments start with the premise of "if I was God, I would have done it..."

    I think that is the difference between our thought processes. I think that there is enough evidence that points me in the direction of God. I am humble enough to understand that I will not understand all of his choices. I accept that.

    I do take the view that we evolve out of the whole universe but how you would think that it just happens to be like that is beyond me. To me that is the a lot less probable than the existence of a deity.

  3. Amen Raphael amen'd this post.
  4. #23
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    1. To be created by amoral, non-rational forces of nature, or...

    2. To be created by a rational, morally good Being?

    I'm not asking if you believe or not in a god, but which scenario would you prefer, and perhaps why...
    It is preferable and more honest to accept reality regardless of personal views. Nothing is "true" just because you want it to be true.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  5. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
  6. #24
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by element771 View Post
    I find a lot of atheists arguments start with the premise of "if I was God, I would have done it..."

    I think that is the difference between our thought processes. I think that there is enough evidence that points me in the direction of God. I am humble enough to understand that I will not understand all of his choices. I accept that.

    I do take the view that we evolve out of the whole universe but how you would think that it just happens to be like that is beyond me. To me that is the a lot less probable than the existence of a deity.
    Questions of this nature are embodied in the fact that the universe exists. Without the universe there is no question. It is as if the universe asks it about itself a bit like the whale in the Hitchhikers Guide; the logic is circular.

    It reminds me of Fermi’s paradox – where are all the aliens? Their absence strongly suggests that beings like us don’t survive for long enough to travel across the galaxy. They would inevitably discover high explosives and worse simply because these things are permissible. So, what then comes first, self destruction or subsistence living? If you take Fermi seriously, the answer is destruction. And this is God’s plan – the nature of the thing itself?

    To put it another way: our destruction is God’s destruction too, or, the universe is telling us, no, there is no God, this is not for you, it has no reason at all.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

  7. #25
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Number 2 for me. I like order.
    Do you mean you like to be under authority and you like everyone to be under that same authority? But not any old authority of course, it must be a benign one.

    I thought your opening post in Admissions was quite interesting:

    “I love to listen and learn from others”.. followed a little later by your quotation .. “and lean not unto thine own understanding”.

    Learn but don’t trust what you learn, or something?

    Good luck, don’t worry, you are among friends.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

  8. #26
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    Questions of this nature are embodied in the fact that the universe exists. Without the universe there is no question. It is as if the universe asks it about itself a bit like the whale in the Hitchhikers Guide; the logic is circular.
    Is your knowledge and understanding of philosophy based on a novel?

    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    It reminds me of Fermi’s paradox – where are all the aliens? Their absence strongly suggests that beings like us don’t survive for long enough to travel across the galaxy. They would inevitably discover high explosives and worse simply because these things are permissible. So, what then comes first, self destruction or subsistence living? If you take Fermi seriously, the answer is destruction. And this is God’s plan – the nature of the thing itself?

    To put it another way: our destruction is God’s destruction too, or, the universe is telling us, no, there is no God, this is not for you, it has no reason at all.
    Unlike your example above, this is actually circular reasoning. It is like saying that the Bible is true because the Bible says it is. You assume God doesn't exist and then tell me that the universe is telling me that God doesn't exist.

  9. #27
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by element771 View Post
    You assume God doesn't exist and then tell me that the universe is telling me that God doesn't exist.
    I assume no god and find none. This is sound research.

    Any serious enquiry would have to assume initially that there is no god and it would have to find unambiguous evidence to justify belief in the god’s existence, and then only provisionally. Not just that but you would need a theory of the god – its own physics. If our search is successful, this physics which we call god explains this other phenomenon and nothing else works, as far as we know – therefore belief in god is reasonable.

    The religious God of sacred texts is entirely a cultural tradition. It either suits you or it does not, in your society it may be compulsory or it is not.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

  10. #28
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    I assume no god and find none. This is sound research.
    Are you also going by Hitchhikers guide for your research?

    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    Any serious enquiry would have to assume initially that there is no god and it would have to find unambiguous evidence to justify belief in the god’s existence, and then only provisionally. Not just that but you would need a theory of the god – its own physics. If our search is successful, this physics which we call god explains this other phenomenon and nothing else works, as far as we know – therefore belief in god is reasonable.
    I have no idea where you are getting this from. You understand that our view of God is transcendent and does not reside in the universe. If this is how you conduct your research, i can understand why you haven't found God yet. You seem to be looking for a God that no one thinks exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    The religious God of sacred texts is entirely a cultural tradition. It either suits you or it does not, in your society it may be compulsory or it is not.
    Again, this is your opinion or belief. It has no bearing on reality.

  11. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  12. #29
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by element771 View Post

    I have no idea where you are getting this from. You understand that our view of God is transcendent and does not reside in the universe. If this is how you conduct your research, i can understand why you haven't found God yet. You seem to be looking for a God that no one thinks exists.
    But the Christian God is not merely transcendent. He is also immanent according to the Church. These properties are not discovered. The Bishops get together and decide the nature of their God by fiat and go about continuously repeating the claim. Their method sets a low standard of veracity but it is sufficient for those who are of a religious mindset and who covet the spectacular wares on offer.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

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    tWebber Magenta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    Do you mean you like to be under authority and you like everyone to be under that same authority? But not any old authority of course, it must be a benign one.

    I thought your opening post in Admissions was quite interesting:

    “I love to listen and learn from others”.. followed a little later by your quotation .. “and lean not unto thine own understanding”.

    Learn but don’t trust what you learn, or something?

    Good luck, don’t worry, you are among friends.
    I like authority instead of chaos. Someone or establishment must be in charge or everyone tries to take control and you get chaos. Order can be a good thing but of course anything out of balance is dangerous.
    I believe balance is key but as humans normally we are always out of balance. I feel safety in knowing that God is in control of everything. I put my full trust in Him.
    When I said I like to listen and learn from others that is always second to what the Bible teaches me. I trust God first but I believe we can learn from others second.

  14. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.

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