Which Would You Personally Prefer...

[JimL]

If he has always existed there is no cause by definition.

Right, there is no ultimate purpose for gods existence, gods existing would ultimately be meaningless. The only distinction you're making between god and the universe in this regard is that god, should such a being exist, has always existed. So what? My point had nothing to do with eternal vs temporal, my only point had to do with purpose and meaning, the lack of which in a godless world, seems to be a problem for christians. If god has no ultimate purpose for existing, if there's no ultimate meaning for his existence, then why would you think that the universe, and the parts therein, must have an ultimate purpose or meaning for it's existence?

[Tassman]

If he has always existed there is no cause by definition.

"IF"

This is an informal conditional fallacy, there is no good reason to believe that such an entity exists.

[Sparko]

Right, there is no ultimate purpose for gods existence, gods existing would ultimately be meaningless. The only distinction you're making between god and the universe in this regard is that god, should such a being exist, has always existed. So what? My point had nothing to do with eternal vs temporal, my only point had to do with purpose and meaning, the lack of which in a godless world, seems to be a problem for christians. If god has no ultimate purpose for existing, if there's no ultimate meaning for his existence, then why would you think that the universe, and the parts therein, must have an ultimate purpose or meaning for it's existence?

no preset purpose doesn't equate to no self-purpose or being meaningless. If someone has a purpose, that indicates that someone set that purpose for them. God sets his own purposes and reasons.

[Sparko]

"IF"

This is an informal conditional fallacy, there is no good reason to believe that such an entity exists.

there are plenty of reasons. That is why there are more people that believe in God than don't.

[JimL]

no preset purpose doesn't equate to no self-purpose or being meaningless. If someone has a purpose, that indicates that someone set that purpose for them. God sets his own purposes and reasons.

If god were eternal, then he obviously couldn't set his own purposes or reasons for existing, if he were to have any purpose, or reasons for his existing, then they too would be eternal. If your argument is that god sets his own purposes and reasons for existing, then he is no different than human beings in that regard.

[Sparko]

If god were eternal, then he obviously couldn't set his own purposes or reasons for existing, if he were to have any purpose, or reasons for his existing, they would also be eternal. If your argument is that god sets his own purposes and reasons for existing, then he is no different than human beings in that regard.

He has no purpose for EXISTING. He has purposes for what he does with his existence. Each individual can do the same, they can make up their own purposes for what they do with their life. But there is also a purpose for mankind to exist at all. To Glorify God.

[JimL]

He has no purpose for EXISTING. He has purposes for what he does with his existence. Each individual can do the same, they can make up their own purposes for what they do with their life.

Exactly my point. Christians need to stop making the argument that in a godless world human beings would have no ultimate reason or purpose for existing as if that's an impossible or senseless conclusion to come to. The same is true of their god, there is no ultimate reason or purpose for his existing. You are not so much concerned about purpose, you're concerned about continued existence.

But there is also a purpose for mankind to exist at all. To Glorify God.

Well, of course, that's merely the assertion of believers who think ultimate purpose is necessary for their existing, and who think that ultimate purpose is to glorify the god who they believe to have created them.

[Sparko]

Exactly my point. Christians need to stop making the argument that in a godless world human beings would have no ultimate reason or purpose for existing as if that's an impossible or senseless conclusion to come to. The same is true of their god, there is no ultimate reason or purpose for his existing. You are not so much concerned about purpose, you're concerned about continued existence.

I don't think I have ever heard that argument from Christians. I believe we DO have a purpose, that there was a reason for God to create us and what he wants us to do. And I believe he has a plan and purpose for each of us. But I have not heard anyone argue that without God a person could not still have his own purposes. In fact, the biggest problem with sin is that people put their own purposes and plans ahead of God.

[seer]

Exactly my point. Christians need to stop making the argument that in a godless world human beings would have no ultimate reason or purpose for existing as if that's an impossible or senseless conclusion to come to. The same is true of their god, there is no ultimate reason or purpose for his existing. You are not so much concerned about purpose, you're concerned about continued existence.

I would say that without God there is no ultimate purpose for humanity. We are just the accidential by product of the forces of nature.

To quote Richard Dawkins:

"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”

That however does not prevent you or a Stalin from making up their own purpose...

[JimL]

I would say that without God there is no ultimate purpose for humanity. We are just the accidential by product of the forces of nature.

Just as there is no ultimate purpose for god.

To quote Richard Dawkins:

"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”

Yes, and? That is exactly what we see. You don't have to like reality, but simply pretending that there is design, simply pretending that there is objective evil and objective good, or simply ignoring the fact that the world is indifferent, doesn't change that reality.

That however does not prevent you or a Stalin from making up their own purpose...

Oh Stalin shmalin. Men do evil things regardless of their world view. Just read your OT bible. The point is that your god has no ultimate purpose or meaning to his existence, so the argument that there must be a god because without god, without a creator, without design, we would have no ultimate purpose or meaning to our existence is an irrelevant argument.

[Tassman]

He has no purpose for EXISTING. He has purposes for what he does with his existence. Each individual can do the same, they can make up their own purposes for what they do with their life.

As with all creatures we have a purpose-driven life; one of survival and reproduction.

But there is also a purpose for mankind to exist at all. To Glorify God.

Wow, that's exciting.

What sort of insecure deity requires constant praising anyway?

[Sparko]

As with all creatures we have a purpose-driven life; one of survival and reproduction.

If that is the only purpose in your life, then I feel sorry for you Tassy. That is really sad.

Wow, that's exciting.

What sort of insecure deity requires constant praising anyway?

It's not praising. It is glorifying. And he deserves it. Why do we glorify anything or anyone? We glorify him by our actions. He created us, and when we do good, and love one another, it reflects back on him as glory. The universe declares his glory. Everything good does.

Glory:
1. high renown or honor won by notable achievements.

2. magnificence or great beauty.

[seer]

What sort of insecure deity requires constant praising anyway?

Worship is not for His benefit, it is for yours. To remind you that your very next breath is dependent on Him.

[element771]

Worship is not for His benefit, it is for yours. To remind you that your very next breath is dependent on Him.

I always likened it to applauding after a great concert / performance or praising a chef after a fantastic meal. They don't demand praise but we feel compelled to let them know how much we appreciate their creation.

[TheWall]

Worship is not for His benefit, it is for yours. To remind you that your very next breath is dependent on Him.

Can you put the hook to leviathan? God needs nothing. He is actually infinite. The first mover. Omnibenevolent, omnipresent, omniscient, and creator who cares for his creation.