Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Which Would You Personally Prefer...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by element771 View Post
    Fine...

    To me it is absurd to think that the universe and beings that can contemplate our own existence exist just because.
    Well, “just because” is not an explanation. It is barely a parody of an explanation. Everyone struggles from time to time with incredulity. I remember as a child being upset by the idea of plate tectonics; it seemed impossible. But that is how the world is and we see how easily we avoid disconcerting truths. “Just because” expresses that discomfort.

    God, like “just because” is an escape from explanations. At best it is a functional myth but often it is a crippling pseudo-explanation that blocks the path to valuable knowledge. For most people, God is the focus of the Sunday pantomime carried out for appearances only.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
      Well, “just because” is not an explanation. It is barely a parody of an explanation. Everyone struggles from time to time with incredulity. I remember as a child being upset by the idea of plate tectonics; it seemed impossible. But that is how the world is and we see how easily we avoid disconcerting truths. “Just because” expresses that discomfort.

      God, like “just because” is an escape from explanations. At best it is a functional myth but often it is a crippling pseudo-explanation that blocks the path to valuable knowledge. For most people, God is the focus of the Sunday pantomime carried out for appearances only.
      Just because.

      No reason.

      Accident.

      That is the way it is.

      Pick one..

      How would you put it exactly?

      I have been on a path my entire life to obtain valuable knowledge. I can assure you that it happening for any of the reasons stated above have not blocked my journey.

      Why were you upset by plate tectonics? Seemed pretty cool to me as a child.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by element771 View Post
        Just because.

        No reason.

        Accident.

        That is the way it is.

        Pick one..

        How would you put it exactly?

        I have been on a path my entire life to obtain valuable knowledge. I can assure you that it happening for any of the reasons stated above have not blocked my journey.

        Why were you upset by plate tectonics? Seemed pretty cool to me as a child.
        It may well be that the only accident that has ever occurred was the initial conditions of the universe. Who knows? But everything after that; the formation of stars and galaxies and planets and even life was inevitable. As soon as something exists that moves towards the light or towards a concentration of something in the environment, things change in a non-random manner.

        Then there is the question of who got here first, God or man. It is a religious convention that before anything else was God. But that convention does not exist until we invent it. Lesser creatures do not have gods unless we choose to see it that way, not on their behalf but for our own sake we say, they too were created by our God.

        Why do we do this? Because we think all ‘creation’ is for us without realising that on a cosmic scale our entire human existence is trivial – blink and you have missed it. A religious man will recoil from that idea because he cannot bare his own insignificance. It is all a matter of thinking at the appropriate scale.

        Tectonics was a shock – so unexpected – sounded like lies – this happened half a century ago.
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          It may well be that the only accident that has ever occurred was the initial conditions of the universe. Who knows? But everything after that; the formation of stars and galaxies and planets and even life was inevitable. As soon as something exists that moves towards the light or towards a concentration of something in the environment, things change in a non-random manner.
          Well I would agree to a point but I think that those are a number of accidents. Initial conditions of the universe that allowed us to evolve and actually contemplate our own existence.

          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          Why do we do this? Because we think all ‘creation’ is for us without realising that on a cosmic scale our entire human existence is trivial – blink and you have missed it. A religious man will recoil from that idea because he cannot bare his own insignificance. It is all a matter of thinking at the appropriate scale.
          I disagree.

          1. Religious people celebrate the whole creation not just us.

          2. I think that the cosmic scale is necessary for our existence. Without those initial conditions that give us the universe as we see it, we wouldn't be here. Without the cosmological constant being what it is...our universe wouldn't be as big but we wouldn't be here. Without the billions of years to form enough carbon in stars, we wouldn't be here. etc etc etc.

          I never understood the argument from size as it is only a matter of perception / preference.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by element771 View Post
            Do you think your beliefs are motivated by your inability to come to term with death under 1?
            No
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by element771 View Post
              Well I would agree to a point but I think that those are a number of accidents. Initial conditions of the universe that allowed us to evolve and actually contemplate our own existence.



              I disagree.

              1. Religious people celebrate the whole creation not just us.

              2. I think that the cosmic scale is necessary for our existence. Without those initial conditions that give us the universe as we see it, we wouldn't be here. Without the cosmological constant being what it is...our universe wouldn't be as big but we wouldn't be here. Without the billions of years to form enough carbon in stars, we wouldn't be here. etc etc etc.

              I never understood the argument from size as it is only a matter of perception / preference.
              By “the argument from size” I suppose you mean the argument against the existence of God because the universe seems so extravagant? It is. It seems obvious to me that an all powerful God would focus on the thing of interest to Him rather than build the enormous surrounding infrastructure. But if you take the view as you seem to that we evolve out of the whole universe then God has no role except that maybe he lights the fuse or something.

              Size is about a bit more than just perception or preferred scale – it’s about ratios.

              Lately, I tend to think that humans are very unusual because of their intellect and their overdeveloped technologies and so on. It is as if we have outgrown nature itself. This is a defect that will destroy us if we are not careful – which we are not. It is two minutes to midnight by the doomsday clock.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                By “the argument from size” I suppose you mean the argument against the existence of God because the universe seems so extravagant? It is. It seems obvious to me that an all powerful God would focus on the thing of interest to Him rather than build the enormous surrounding infrastructure. But if you take the view as you seem to that we evolve out of the whole universe then God has no role except that maybe he lights the fuse or something.

                Size is about a bit more than just perception or preferred scale – it’s about ratios.

                I find a lot of atheists arguments start with the premise of "if I was God, I would have done it..."

                I think that is the difference between our thought processes. I think that there is enough evidence that points me in the direction of God. I am humble enough to understand that I will not understand all of his choices. I accept that.

                I do take the view that we evolve out of the whole universe but how you would think that it just happens to be like that is beyond me. To me that is the a lot less probable than the existence of a deity.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  1. To be created by amoral, non-rational forces of nature, or...

                  2. To be created by a rational, morally good Being?

                  I'm not asking if you believe or not in a god, but which scenario would you prefer, and perhaps why...
                  It is preferable and more honest to accept reality regardless of personal views. Nothing is "true" just because you want it to be true.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by element771 View Post
                    I find a lot of atheists arguments start with the premise of "if I was God, I would have done it..."

                    I think that is the difference between our thought processes. I think that there is enough evidence that points me in the direction of God. I am humble enough to understand that I will not understand all of his choices. I accept that.

                    I do take the view that we evolve out of the whole universe but how you would think that it just happens to be like that is beyond me. To me that is the a lot less probable than the existence of a deity.
                    Questions of this nature are embodied in the fact that the universe exists. Without the universe there is no question. It is as if the universe asks it about itself a bit like the whale in the Hitchhikers Guide; the logic is circular.

                    It reminds me of Fermi’s paradox – where are all the aliens? Their absence strongly suggests that beings like us don’t survive for long enough to travel across the galaxy. They would inevitably discover high explosives and worse simply because these things are permissible. So, what then comes first, self destruction or subsistence living? If you take Fermi seriously, the answer is destruction. And this is God’s plan – the nature of the thing itself?

                    To put it another way: our destruction is God’s destruction too, or, the universe is telling us, no, there is no God, this is not for you, it has no reason at all.
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Magenta View Post
                      Number 2 for me. I like order.
                      Do you mean you like to be under authority and you like everyone to be under that same authority? But not any old authority of course, it must be a benign one.

                      I thought your opening post in Admissions was quite interesting:

                      “I love to listen and learn from others”.. followed a little later by your quotation .. “and lean not unto thine own understanding”.

                      Learn but don’t trust what you learn, or something?

                      Good luck, don’t worry, you are among friends.
                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        Questions of this nature are embodied in the fact that the universe exists. Without the universe there is no question. It is as if the universe asks it about itself a bit like the whale in the Hitchhikers Guide; the logic is circular.
                        Is your knowledge and understanding of philosophy based on a novel?

                        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        It reminds me of Fermi’s paradox – where are all the aliens? Their absence strongly suggests that beings like us don’t survive for long enough to travel across the galaxy. They would inevitably discover high explosives and worse simply because these things are permissible. So, what then comes first, self destruction or subsistence living? If you take Fermi seriously, the answer is destruction. And this is God’s plan – the nature of the thing itself?

                        To put it another way: our destruction is God’s destruction too, or, the universe is telling us, no, there is no God, this is not for you, it has no reason at all.
                        Unlike your example above, this is actually circular reasoning. It is like saying that the Bible is true because the Bible says it is. You assume God doesn't exist and then tell me that the universe is telling me that God doesn't exist.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by element771 View Post
                          You assume God doesn't exist and then tell me that the universe is telling me that God doesn't exist.
                          I assume no god and find none. This is sound research.

                          Any serious enquiry would have to assume initially that there is no god and it would have to find unambiguous evidence to justify belief in the god’s existence, and then only provisionally. Not just that but you would need a theory of the god – its own physics. If our search is successful, this physics which we call god explains this other phenomenon and nothing else works, as far as we know – therefore belief in god is reasonable.

                          The religious God of sacred texts is entirely a cultural tradition. It either suits you or it does not, in your society it may be compulsory or it is not.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            I assume no god and find none. This is sound research.
                            Are you also going by Hitchhikers guide for your research?

                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            Any serious enquiry would have to assume initially that there is no god and it would have to find unambiguous evidence to justify belief in the god’s existence, and then only provisionally. Not just that but you would need a theory of the god – its own physics. If our search is successful, this physics which we call god explains this other phenomenon and nothing else works, as far as we know – therefore belief in god is reasonable.
                            I have no idea where you are getting this from. You understand that our view of God is transcendent and does not reside in the universe. If this is how you conduct your research, i can understand why you haven't found God yet. You seem to be looking for a God that no one thinks exists.

                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            The religious God of sacred texts is entirely a cultural tradition. It either suits you or it does not, in your society it may be compulsory or it is not.
                            Again, this is your opinion or belief. It has no bearing on reality.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by element771 View Post

                              I have no idea where you are getting this from. You understand that our view of God is transcendent and does not reside in the universe. If this is how you conduct your research, i can understand why you haven't found God yet. You seem to be looking for a God that no one thinks exists.
                              But the Christian God is not merely transcendent. He is also immanent according to the Church. These properties are not discovered. The Bishops get together and decide the nature of their God by fiat and go about continuously repeating the claim. Their method sets a low standard of veracity but it is sufficient for those who are of a religious mindset and who covet the spectacular wares on offer.
                              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                              “not all there” - you know who you are

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                                Do you mean you like to be under authority and you like everyone to be under that same authority? But not any old authority of course, it must be a benign one.

                                I thought your opening post in Admissions was quite interesting:

                                “I love to listen and learn from others”.. followed a little later by your quotation .. “and lean not unto thine own understanding”.

                                Learn but don’t trust what you learn, or something?

                                Good luck, don’t worry, you are among friends.
                                I like authority instead of chaos. Someone or establishment must be in charge or everyone tries to take control and you get chaos. Order can be a good thing but of course anything out of balance is dangerous.
                                I believe balance is key but as humans normally we are always out of balance. I feel safety in knowing that God is in control of everything. I put my full trust in Him.
                                When I said I like to listen and learn from others that is always second to what the Bible teaches me. I trust God first but I believe we can learn from others second.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                157 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                129 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                426 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X