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Convince Me: anarchy is a legitimate political position for a Christian

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  • #16
    Anarchism in relation to human government. The Bible is pretty clear that, when human government and God's law come into conflict, we obey God. All law and moral values are ultimately derived from the very being of God Himself. Without God, there is no value, no morals, no human rights. Anarchism rejects human government, since all human are fallible, and government inevitably infringes upon the rights of its subjects. I don't know if I would call myself an anarchist though, since it is at least theoretically possible for their to be a state based on voluntarist principles. But then there is the question of whether it would be a state.

    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    (if any roads exist because the State isn't there to create them)
    I don't want to insult your intelligence by suggesting that you actually believe what you just said.
    My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
      I don't want to insult your intelligence by suggesting that you actually believe what you just said.
      Are you in the "we won't need roads because we'll all have jet packs" group of libertarians?
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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      • #18
        I'm about as anti-libertarian as one gets and I still think the roads argument is a poor one. People will make do to accommodate economic necessity in their circumstances, as did the residents in the Kowloon Walled City.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          I'm about as anti-libertarian as one gets and I still think the roads argument is a poor one. People will make do to accommodate economic necessity in their circumstances, as did the residents in the Kowloon Walled City.
          Am I right in thinking Kowloon actually had zero roads and just had garbage filled alleyways?

          I think there's a lot of serious problems with Libertarianism as I outlined in my second to last post. Roading is only about 5% of the government expenditure, so it's only a tiny one of many things they'd have to explain how to replace or not have in their feudalistic dystopia.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Throughout the Torah, the Israelite tribal society could be described as anarchic - there was no formal state, no taxes, to the extent that law codes were given and enforced at various times they were religious in nature rather than governmental.
            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              Am I right in thinking Kowloon actually had zero roads and just had garbage filled alleyways?

              I think there's a lot of serious problems with Libertarianism as I outlined in my second to last post. Roading is only about 5% of the government expenditure, so it's only a tiny one of many things they'd have to explain how to replace or not have in their feudalistic dystopia.
              Yes, though you wouldn't expect to find roads in a building. It did have a thriving economy, though to say there were serious health/safety/logistical problems would be an understatement.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                I'm about as anti-libertarian as one gets and I still think the roads argument is a poor one. People will make do to accommodate economic necessity in their circumstances, as did the residents in the Kowloon Walled City.
                Ruled by gangs, not no government.
                Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Especially when it is used to refer to a representative Republic.
                  'look at wonderful rep Republic of ours, freedom!!!!' doesn't have same ring though.
                  Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    Are you in the "we won't need roads because we'll all have jet packs" group of libertarians?
                    Well, there is the fact that private enterprise is vastly superior at the development and production of new technology which could very well eliminate the need for roads. However, that aside, private enterprise is simply better at building and maintaining roads than the government has ever been.
                    My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      Roading is only about 5% of the government expenditure.
                      Less than that, actually. Roads make up such a tiny portion of the US budget that you could pay it using the excise taxes from cigarettes, alcohol, and gasoline alone. So, if you want roads, keep drinking, driving, and smoking.
                      My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
                        Less than that, actually. Roads make up such a tiny portion of the US budget that you could pay it using the excise taxes from cigarettes, alcohol, and gasoline alone. So, if you want roads, keep drinking, driving, and smoking.
                        Not a good idea to do that all at the same time.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                          Ruled by gangs, not no government.
                          It's inevitable that something will always fill a power vacuum. Anarchists do know this, right? (I'm actually not convinced of this.)
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            It's inevitable that something will always fill a power vacuum. Anarchists do know this, right? (I'm actually not convinced of this.)
                            Big L Libertarians too? Who knows!!!
                            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
                              Well, there is the fact that private enterprise is vastly superior at the development and production of new technology
                              Citation needed.

                              I am a scientist. To the best of my knowledge, most major scientific breakthroughs have typically come via government-funded institutions, at least in the past. This view seems to be accepted wisdom in the scientific community among others I have talked to.

                              If you look at the development of computers during the 20th century, for example, major breakthroughs were made by Alan Turning while working for the British government, then transistors were invented at the University of Manchester, then integrated circuits were invented by a scientist working for the British defense department, and the internet began as a network connection created between UCLA and Stanford and then was expanded and funded by the US National Science Foundation. All these technologies were commercialized and moved into the private sector only after first being invented by the public sector.

                              That is still the typical pattern today, where professors or grad students will discover/invent something and then the university will help them spin off a private company to commercialize the product.

                              private enterprise is simply better at building and maintaining roads than the government has ever been.
                              Citation needed.

                              Sounds very unlikely to be true to me.

                              Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
                              Roads make up such a tiny portion of the US budget that you could pay it using the excise taxes from cigarettes, alcohol, and gasoline alone. So, if you want roads, keep drinking, driving, and smoking.
                              ...and have a government that enforces those taxes and then spends the money on roads.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                                It's inevitable that something will always fill a power vacuum. Anarchists do know this, right? (I'm actually not convinced of this.)
                                I'm also not convinced they know that: I don't think most US libertarians understand the consequences of their own policies.

                                Because libertarians cannot point to any current libertarian country and look at how it functions, they feel free to imagine in their own minds how it would work. They seem to tend to assume that if they haven't thought of a problem with regard to how their hypothetical society would function, said problem must not exist, and think that their imaginary society would totally be a utopia rather than the dystopia that the rest of us think it rather obvious that it would be. My general view of these people is that they are some combination of ignorant about the world, not very smart, have a lack of understanding of what the government actually does, don't pay nearly enough attention to all the problems with their proposals, and most importantly they are vastly vastly vastly too credulous in believing in the plausibility of their imaginary scenario about how a complex hypothetical society would function without themselves having studied examples of it, or anything remotely close to it, successfully functioning.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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