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Mark 14:12

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  • Mark 14:12

    . . . And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover. . . . Mark 14:12

    What is the date on the Jewish calendar this event refers to?
    I understand it to refer to the 14th of Nisan (Exodus 12:).

    . . . the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening [afternoon]. . . . v.6

    . . . In the first [month], on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. . . . v.18

    Which places Christ's crucifixion on the 15th.

    Of which it says, ". an holy convocation, and . . . no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. . . ." v.16 and context.

    The Romans carried out the execution not the Jews.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

  • #2
    I posted somewhere about a month or two ago my opinion that Jesus and His disciples were following a different calendar, and that they celebrated the Passover on Tuesday after sunset, which would have been Tuesday night, 12 Nisan according to Levitical calendar, 15 Nisan according to the Essene/Jubilee calendar, or April 4, AD 30 of the Julian calendar.

    The more commonly held view in the Christian community is that the Last Supper was what is known as Maundy Thursday, or Thursday after sunset, April 6, AD 30, and that according to the Levitical calendar the daytime of Thursday, April 6 was 13 Nisan, the day in which the lambs were to be sacrificed. After sunset,Thursday, April 6 became 14 Nisan, the beginning of the Passover feast. The next morning was Friday April 7, the day of preparation for the sabbath as well as Passover day. At sunset, Friday April 7, the sabbath, 15 Nisan began.

    So we got three things going: (1) what I think was the date of the Last Supper, which agrees with the earliest church fathers; (2) the more commonly held church tradition, and (3) the Levitical calendar. All three agree on what day the crucifixion actually took place, during the day on Friday, April 7, or 14 Nisan.

    I hope I got that right.

    Tuesday, April 4; daytime = 11 Nisan (But the date on which several people, including Jesus, sacrificed their lambs; my opinion).
    --- After sunset, beginning of 12 Nisan (Levitical calendar); 15 Nisan according to Essene/Jubilee calendar and the Last Supper; arrest of Jesus (my opinion).
    Wednesday, April 5; daytime = 12 Nisan. First day of trial of Jesus (my opinion)
    --- After sunset, beginning of 13 Nisan.
    Thursday, April 6; daytime = 13 Nisan. Second day of trial of Jesus (As required by Jewish law), before Pilate and Herod (my opinion)
    --- After sunset, traditional date of the Last Supper, actually on 14 Nisan.
    Friday, April 7; daytime = 14 Nisan, day of preparation and sacrifice of the lambs. Crucifixion of Jesus.
    --- After sunset = beginning of 15 Nisan, beginning of the Passover meal (seder); beginning of the sabbath.
    Saturday, April 8; daytime = 15 Nisan, day of Passover, daytime of the sabbath.
    Last edited by Faber; 03-10-2018, 06:02 PM.
    When I Survey....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Faber View Post
      I posted somewhere about a month or two ago my opinion that Jesus and His disciples were following a different calendar, and that they celebrated the Passover on Tuesday after sunset, which would have been Tuesday night, 12 Nisan according to Levitical calendar, 15 Nisan according to the Essene/Jubilee calendar, or April 4, AD 30 of the Julian calendar.

      The more commonly held view in the Christian community is that the Last Supper was what is known as Maundy Thursday, or Thursday after sunset, April 6, AD 30, and that according to the Levitical calendar the daytime of Thursday, April 6 was 13 Nisan, the day in which the lambs were to be sacrificed. After sunset,Thursday, April 6 became 14 Nisan, the beginning of the Passover feast. The next morning was Friday April 7, the day of preparation for the sabbath as well as Passover day. At sunset, Friday April 7, the sabbath, 15 Nisan began.

      So we got three things going: (1) what I think was the date of the Last Supper, which agrees with the earliest church fathers; (2) the more commonly held church tradition, and (3) the Levitical calendar. All three agree on what day the crucifixion actually took place, during the day on Friday, April 7, or 14 Nisan.

      I hope I got that right.

      Tuesday, April 4; daytime = 11 Nisan (But the date on which several people, including Jesus, sacrificed their lambs; my opinion).
      --- After sunset, beginning of 12 Nisan (Levitical calendar); 15 Nisan according to Essene/Jubilee calendar and the Last Supper; arrest of Jesus (my opinion).
      Wednesday, April 5; daytime = 12 Nisan. First day of trial of Jesus (my opinion)
      --- After sunset, beginning of 13 Nisan.
      Thursday, April 6; daytime = 13 Nisan. Second day of trial of Jesus (As required by Jewish law), before Pilate and Herod (my opinion)
      --- After sunset, traditional date of the Last Supper, actually on 14 Nisan.
      Friday, April 7; daytime = 14 Nisan, day of preparation and sacrifice of the lambs. Crucifixion of Jesus.
      --- After sunset = beginning of 15 Nisan, beginning of the Passover meal (seder); beginning of the sabbath.
      Saturday, April 8; daytime = 15 Nisan, day of Passover, daytime of the sabbath.
      Mark 14:12 was the day before the evening vs. 17-18. The question is what day according to the Jewish calendar did the event of Mark 14:12 take place?
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Again, my opinion is that this was 11 Nisan (Tuesday, April 4, AD 30). The majority of Christians hold that this was 13 Nisan (Thursday, April 6). The official legitimate date in which the priests officially killed the lambs was supposed to be 14 Nisan.

        Then there's some character named rstrats (a troll) who pops up once every three months on this website and other websites who claims that according to Matthew 12:40 the crucifixion took place on Thursday, and therefore the Last Supper and the sacrifice of the Passover lamb took place on Wednesday. The last time he showed up was 11/4/2017, so he's about due for a reappearance.
        Last edited by Faber; 03-10-2018, 07:07 PM.
        When I Survey....

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Faber View Post
          Again, my opinion is that this was 11 Nisan (Tuesday, April 4, AD 30). The majority of Christians hold that this was 13 Nisan (Thursday, April 6). The official legitimate date in which the priests officially killed the lambs was supposed to be 14 Nisan.

          Then there's some character named rstrats (a troll) who pops up once every three months on this website and other websites who claims that according to Matthew 12:40 the crucifixion took place on Thursday, and therefore the Last Supper and the sacrifice of the Passover lamb took place on Wednesday. The last time he showed up was 11/4/2017, so he's about due for a reappearance.
          Your opinion that is fine. What is the source for Nisan 11? The source for Nisan 13? An explanation or a claim again is fine. But where did the claim come from? What is the source evidence?
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #6
            Because the Hebrew calendar was based primarily on actual observations of the crescent moon, not on astronomical calculations (Talmud Babli, Tractate Sanhedrin, folios 2a, 10b), factors other than astronomical calculations needed to be taken into account. It is not possible to see the crescent of the new moon with the naked eye less than 15 hours before or after the moon’s closest approach to the sun, or when the moon is less that 7.5ş of arc from the Sun. This is known as the Danjon limit, named after the French astronomer André-Louis Danjon.

            But an abstract by Mohammad Ilyas entitled “The Danjon Limit of Lunar Visibility: A Re-examination,” (Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada, 1983. Vol. 77, p. 214.) states, “From a re-examination of Danjon’s data, it may be safely concluded that a more appropriate limiting elongation is closer to this value, i.e. ~10.5ş.” That would make a minimum of about 20.6 hours after conjunction before the crescent moon could become visible to the naked eye of a trained observer intentionally searching for the crescent moon.

            There was a new moon at 17:47 UT on Wednesday, March 22, AD 30 two hours after sunset at Jerusalem. The crescent moon would not have been visible until Thursday evening, March 23 at 15:53 UT at the earliest, about 22 hours after conjunction. This is after Mohammad Ilyas’s 20.6-hour limit, but would still require a trained eye knowing exactly where to look for the crescent moon. But it’s possible that no two witnesses had been able to see it until sunset on Friday, March 24, when it would be 46 hours old, making that sunset the beginning of 1 Nisan.

            Passover could have begun as early as Thursday evening, April 6, but more probably the next day, on the evening of Friday evening, April 7, making that Sabbath a “high day”. This latter of the two dates agrees with John’s Gospel in dating the Passover on the Sabbath.

            The dates as I described are based on that calculation, not part of my personal opinion, and is the calculation generally agreed on by nearly everybody.
            When I Survey....

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Faber View Post
              Because the Hebrew calendar was based primarily on actual observations of the crescent moon, not on astronomical calculations (Talmud Babli, Tractate Sanhedrin, folios 2a, 10b), factors other than astronomical calculations needed to be taken into account. It is not possible to see the crescent of the new moon with the naked eye less than 15 hours before or after the moon’s closest approach to the sun, or when the moon is less that 7.5ş of arc from the Sun. This is known as the Danjon limit, named after the French astronomer André-Louis Danjon.

              But an abstract by Mohammad Ilyas entitled “The Danjon Limit of Lunar Visibility: A Re-examination,” (Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada, 1983. Vol. 77, p. 214.) states, “From a re-examination of Danjon’s data, it may be safely concluded that a more appropriate limiting elongation is closer to this value, i.e. ~10.5ş.” That would make a minimum of about 20.6 hours after conjunction before the crescent moon could become visible to the naked eye of a trained observer intentionally searching for the crescent moon.

              There was a new moon at 17:47 UT on Wednesday, March 22, AD 30 two hours after sunset at Jerusalem. The crescent moon would not have been visible until Thursday evening, March 23 at 15:53 UT at the earliest, about 22 hours after conjunction. This is after Mohammad Ilyas’s 20.6-hour limit, but would still require a trained eye knowing exactly where to look for the crescent moon. But it’s possible that no two witnesses had been able to see it until sunset on Friday, March 24, when it would be 46 hours old, making that sunset the beginning of 1 Nisan.

              Passover could have begun as early as Thursday evening, April 6, but more probably the next day, on the evening of Friday evening, April 7, making that Sabbath a “high day”. This latter of the two dates agrees with John’s Gospel in dating the Passover on the Sabbath.

              The dates as I described are based on that calculation, not part of my personal opinion, and is the calculation generally agreed on by nearly everybody.
              The question is in regard to Mark 14:12 as what Jewish date it was, not how the date was reckoned. What day of the week the event took place is another question.

              The year of the crucifixion is yet another question. The supposed year had long been held to be 30 AD. It was do to astronomical calculation to be 33 AD!

              So again what date should we understand the day of the event of Mark 14:12 to be? Nisan 11? Nisan 13? Nisan 14? And why?
              Last edited by 37818; 03-11-2018, 10:30 AM.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #8
                11 Nisan or 13 Nisan. Take your pick.
                When I Survey....

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Faber View Post
                  11 Nisan or 13 Nisan. Take your pick.
                  Neither would be my pick. You seem to think it could be either. OK. My question then becomes why? I presume either of those dates have a good reason. I have often heard 13th argued. I have never seen the historical biblical justification.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't know of any justification. It's only tradition. Personally, I don't see how it could be. Too many things happened in so short a time. The generally held conclusion is that the trial, which was for capital offense, was held quickly, despite the requirement for a two-day trial for capital cases. Consider this:

                    If we hold to the traditional Thursday night Last Supper and arrest of Jesus, then this is the order in which the events on Friday morning took place:
                    ∙ Early in the morning, after the morning Tamid sacrifice, the Sanhedrin took counsel to deliver Jesus to Pilate. The Tamid ceremony began at sunrise and lasted an hour. The Sanhedrin would have conveded around 7 AM local time, or an hour after sunrise.

                    The witnesses were thoroughly vetted by the lawyers. They had to be in perfect agreement, even down to the smallest details. In order to do that, the lawyers asked a barrage of questions.
                    The first set of questions known as the Hakiroth, were of a general nature. There were seven questions: During which set of seven years (a sabbatical week) was the crime committed? Which year of that week? Which month of that year? Which date of that month? What day of the week? What hour? At what place? The second set of questions, known as Bedikoth, were more intensive: In the case of Jesus, the witnesses could have been asked what He said, what He did. What exactly did He teach that was blasphemous? What specific act did He do in violation of the Sabbath? The witnesses were not questioned in the presence of other witnesses, lest there be any collusion. If the witnesses could not remember, or if they disagreed on any of the questions, their testimony was dismissed. And the lawyers considered themselves praiseworthy if they had a reputation for exhaustive cross-examination. The witnesses were asked if they knew the person, and if they gave him warning. (Tractate Sanhedrin; folio 40a)

                    ∙ Early in the morning, Jesus was taken to the Hall of Judgment to be tried by Pilate. The Jews addressed Pilate outside the Hall of Judgment because they felt that entering the chambers of a gentile would disqualify them from observing the Passover.
                    ∙ Pilate questioned Jesus inside the Hall of Judgment; found no fault in Jesus.
                    ∙ Pilate returned to the Sanhedrin outside the Hall of Judgment. Pilate learned that Jesus was from Galilee, sent Jesus clear acros town to Herod Antipas in Herod's Palace.
                    ∙ Herod Antipas questioned Jesus; chief priests accused Him before Herod. Herod’s guards mocked Jesus; Jesus was sent back across town to Pilate in the Fortress Antonia.
                    ∙ Pilate summoned the rulers, offered to release Jesus; They wanted Barabbas released instead. They demanded that Jesus be crucified. Pilate submitted to their demand.
                    ∙ Jesus was scourged, then taken to the Praetorium where He was mocked by the Roman soldiers.
                    ∙ Either Jesus or Simon of Cyrene was forced to carry Jesus’s cross. Tradition states that Simon was forced to drag the cross after Jesus was no longer able. Not knowing the place of origin, and debating the actual location of Calvary (Kranion, or Golgotha), we can only estimate that somebody dragged a three-hundred-pound cross for the length of one or two thousand feet. The soldiers took Him to Golgotha, outside the gates of the city.
                    ∙ Jesus spoke to the lamenting women.
                    ∙ At the third hour (9 AM) Jesus was crucified. (Mark 15:25)
                    All this in only two hours???
                    When I Survey....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Faber View Post
                      I don't know of any justification. It's only tradition. Personally, I don't see how it could be. Too many things happened in so short a time. The generally held conclusion is that the trial, which was for capital offense, was held quickly, despite the requirement for a two-day trial for capital cases. Consider this:

                      If we hold to the traditional Thursday night Last Supper and arrest of Jesus, then this is the order in which the events on Friday morning took place:
                      ∙ Early in the morning, after the morning Tamid sacrifice, the Sanhedrin took counsel to deliver Jesus to Pilate. The Tamid ceremony began at sunrise and lasted an hour. The Sanhedrin would have conveded around 7 AM local time, or an hour after sunrise.

                      The witnesses were thoroughly vetted by the lawyers. They had to be in perfect agreement, even down to the smallest details. In order to do that, the lawyers asked a barrage of questions.
                      The first set of questions known as the Hakiroth, were of a general nature. There were seven questions: During which set of seven years (a sabbatical week) was the crime committed? Which year of that week? Which month of that year? Which date of that month? What day of the week? What hour? At what place? The second set of questions, known as Bedikoth, were more intensive: In the case of Jesus, the witnesses could have been asked what He said, what He did. What exactly did He teach that was blasphemous? What specific act did He do in violation of the Sabbath? The witnesses were not questioned in the presence of other witnesses, lest there be any collusion. If the witnesses could not remember, or if they disagreed on any of the questions, their testimony was dismissed. And the lawyers considered themselves praiseworthy if they had a reputation for exhaustive cross-examination. The witnesses were asked if they knew the person, and if they gave him warning. (Tractate Sanhedrin; folio 40a)

                      ∙ Early in the morning, Jesus was taken to the Hall of Judgment to be tried by Pilate. The Jews addressed Pilate outside the Hall of Judgment because they felt that entering the chambers of a gentile would disqualify them from observing the Passover.
                      ∙ Pilate questioned Jesus inside the Hall of Judgment; found no fault in Jesus.
                      ∙ Pilate returned to the Sanhedrin outside the Hall of Judgment. Pilate learned that Jesus was from Galilee, sent Jesus clear acros town to Herod Antipas in Herod's Palace.
                      ∙ Herod Antipas questioned Jesus; chief priests accused Him before Herod. Herod’s guards mocked Jesus; Jesus was sent back across town to Pilate in the Fortress Antonia.
                      ∙ Pilate summoned the rulers, offered to release Jesus; They wanted Barabbas released instead. They demanded that Jesus be crucified. Pilate submitted to their demand.
                      ∙ Jesus was scourged, then taken to the Praetorium where He was mocked by the Roman soldiers.
                      ∙ Either Jesus or Simon of Cyrene was forced to carry Jesus’s cross. Tradition states that Simon was forced to drag the cross after Jesus was no longer able. Not knowing the place of origin, and debating the actual location of Calvary (Kranion, or Golgotha), we can only estimate that somebody dragged a three-hundred-pound cross for the length of one or two thousand feet. The soldiers took Him to Golgotha, outside the gates of the city.
                      ∙ Jesus spoke to the lamenting women.
                      ∙ At the third hour (9 AM) Jesus was crucified. (Mark 15:25)
                      All this in only two hours???
                      There are some number of issues. I intended to have Mark 14:12 addressed.

                      The evidence seems to point to what would then be a popular myth - that Christ had to be crucified on the 14th of the month. The following day from Mark 14:12 being interpreted as the 14th would make that day the 13th.

                      Hebrews 10:1 explains, ". . . For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. . . ."
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        While I may question the date of the Last Supper and the arrest of Jesus, I agree with the majority that Jesus was crucified on the 14th of Nisan, the day before the Passover feast as observed by the priests and the Pharisees. Even the Babylonian Talmud, the holiest of Hebrew writings, even higher than the Old Testament, agrees:

                        On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. (tractate Sanhedrin, folio 43a)
                        Some manuscripts of tractate Sanhedrin contain slight variations. Some read, “On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu ha-Notzri ( Jesus the Nazarene)” or “On Sabbath even and the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu ha-Notzri.”

                        It's only trolls like rstrats who insist that Jesus was buried for three whole days and three whole nights. Granted Matthew 12:40 presents some difficulty, but the references to Jesus rising on the third day are clear. If Jesus was crucified on Friday during the day, Sunday morning qualifies as being the third day.
                        When I Survey....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The Passover has 8 evenings. One for the passover day and seven of the Passover feast (see Luke 22:1 the feast being called the Passover).
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The fact remains that Mark 14:12 biblically only refers to the 14th of that month. The 13th is an unbiblical invention to supposedly allow a 14th crucifixion. Biblically the Passover sin offering is on the 15th.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The date of what is spoken of in Mark 14:12 was the day before Christ was crucified.

                              In 30AD it was April 5, a Wednesday.
                              In 33AD it was April 3, a Friday.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment

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