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Student kicked out for telling professor there are only two genders

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  • #16
    Bruce Wayne could only do what he did because he was rich. White privilege!
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      Bruce Wayne could only do what he did because he was rich. White privilege!
      Wouldn't that be wealthy privilege? Not to mention that superhero universes have "powers and abilities beyond those of mortal men" privilege. Which can't be said of real life. Except, would liberals think that Jesus had "privilege" due to being able to do stuff we can't do?
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
        Wouldn't that be wealthy privilege?
        No! Don't you know all white people are rich!
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • #19
          As far as I can tell, the only real source for information on this story so far is the student himself, so I can't help but feel like we may be getting a rather one-sided and self-serving description of the events.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            Alliance Defense will probably be defending this student.
            That's who bails my sorry butt out when I get carried away.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              He told the class that the official view of biologists is that there are only two genders.
              I'm wondering if we can reach agreement that this student's claim about what scientists believe is factually wrong?

              Does anyone want to try and defend his claim by citing any sort of "official view of biologists" to the effect "that there are only two genders"? The claim seems nonsensical at face value if one accepts the standard definition that sex is biological (genes + hormones + body bits and functions) whereas gender is societal (how society categorizes people and what behaviors it expects of them). But even if we change the subject to 'sex' rather than 'gender', the public proclamations that I am aware by biologists say there aren't just two sexes. So the boy appears completely factually incorrect in his claims about the "official view of biologists".

              From a 2015 article in the Journal Nature:
              The idea of two sexes is simplistic. Biologists now think there is a wider spectrum than that...

              Sex can be much more complicated than it at first seems. According to the simple scenario, the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is what counts: with it, you are male, and without it, you are female. But doctors have long known that some people straddle the boundary — their sex chromosomes say one thing, but their gonads (ovaries or testes) or sexual anatomy say another...

              When genetics is taken into consideration, the boundary between the sexes becomes even blurrier. Scientists have identified many of the genes involved in the main forms of DSD, and have uncovered variations in these genes that have subtle effects on a person's anatomical or physiological sex. What's more, new technologies in DNA sequencing and cell biology are revealing that almost everyone is, to varying degrees, a patchwork of genetically distinct cells, some with a sex that might not match that of the rest of their body. Some studies even suggest that the sex of each cell drives its behaviour, through a complicated network of molecular interactions. “I think there's much greater diversity within male or female, and there is certainly an area of overlap where some people can't easily define themselves within the binary structure,” says John Achermann, who studies sex development and endocrinology at University College London's Institute of Child Health...

              Gene mutations affecting gonad development can result in a person with XY chromosomes developing typically female characteristics, whereas alterations in hormone signalling can cause XX individuals to develop along male lines...

              “Biologically, it's a spectrum,” says Vilain...

              Last year, for example, surgeons reported that they had been operating on a hernia in a man, when they discovered that he had a womb. The man was 70, and had fathered four children.

              ...things become even more complex when scientists zoom in to look at individual cells. The common assumption that every cell contains the same set of genes is untrue. ...stem cells from a fetus cross the placenta into the mother's body, and vice versa ...men often carry cells from their mothers, and women who have been pregnant with a male fetus can carry a smattering of its discarded cells... Other studies have shown that these immigrant cells are not idle; they integrate into their new environment...

              Biologists may have been building a more nuanced view of sex, but society has yet to catch up...


              The feminist professor booted him from class and asked him not to come back.
              The article has a picture of the first complaint filed against him, and among the things it lists are "Refusal to stop talking out of turn; Angry outbursts in response to being required to listen to a trans speaker...". If those things are indeed true, and he was truly being disruptive and not shutting up when asked and having various angry outbursts, then throwing him out of class seems justified.

              For those here who haven't attended university, lectures do vary a bit in style by subject and lecturer but ultimately they tend to be fairly similar to high school and are mostly about the lecturer talking (or playing videos) and the class listening and learning. They are not a forum where students have some sort of right to talk as much as they want for as long as they want. They are a forum for learning, and any student that started talking unduly would be disrupting the other students' learning and the lecturer would have an obligation to act on behalf of the other students (who are spending time and money to be in the class and learning) to address the disruption. And when the student brings up First Amendment rights he is talking absolute nonsense.

              A given lecturer may feel that it's appropriate to have some sort of class discussion about an issue, but if so, that's entirely up to the lecturer, and any methods of guiding the discussion or limits set on the discussion are entirely up to the lecturer. Students may occasionally call out questions during the lecture, and that's usually encouraged, but if one student keeps on doing and doing and doing it, the rest of the class will start glaring at them and the lecturer will usually encourage them to quiet down. If it's bad it will generally escalate through the stages of the lecturer's body language suggesting enough's enough, and increasingly less subtle verbal hints that the lecturer's getting exasperated. I've never seen a lecturer escalate to the point of having to openly and flatly tell a particular student to be quiet and stop being disruptive. And I've certainly never seen it escalate to the point of the lecturer ending up telling the student to leave the classroom because they refused to be quiet after they were told to be quiet.

              So my takeaway from the article is that he was disrupting the classes to such a significant extent that the lecturer ended up throwing him out. He doesn't deny he was being disruptive, and he admits he wasn't following the rules for the class discussion. (He also appears to have been peddling factually false information in his outbursts, which annoys me from a scientific perspective, though students are allowed to be ignorant and wrong and learning stuff is what they're there for.) If he wanted to deny these misbehavior and disruptiveness allegations (which he doesn't seem to) he should find some other students in the class who can testify that his behavior was actually okay, and that it was the professor who lost it and had angry outbursts. Since the article fails to quote any other class students, I tend to assume they all agreed with the lecturer that this student was being disruptive and needed to be kicked out.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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              • #22
                It’s amusing to watch Starlight trying to cling to medical oddities to try to ‘prove’ there’s more than two genders. Never mind the fact these are rare and are the exception rather than the rule. Besides, liberals had no problem being disruptive and talking out of turn when it’s consertives speaking. Isn’t turn about fair play?
                Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 03-13-2018, 11:18 PM.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post

                  Besides, liberals had no problem being disruptive and talking out of turn when it’s consertives speaking. Isn’t turn about fair play?
                  No. Obviously not. Haven't you seen how liberal react to hecklers and the like (including those also from the left)?

                  Once again their "tolerance" only goes one way.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    It’s amusing to watch Starlight trying to cling to medical oddities to try to ‘prove’ there’s more than two genders.
                    The statement made in the article was that it's the "official view of biologists" that there "are only two genders". In my view: Citation definitely needed. Does anyone wish to try and provide any sort of official statement from biologists saying there are two genders?

                    I looked around the internet for statements by biologists on the topic. The only statements I could easily find were biologists saying there weren't only 2 sexes and that it's a complicated issue. I cited an article from the world's top biology journal on that subject.

                    I've noticed over the years that there does seem to be some sort of meme among US conservatives that 'biology says' there are only 2 sexes, which AFAICT is a false claim based on zero evidence other than US conservatives repeating it back and forth to each other. The article says the kid in his classes put forth the idea that there's an "official view of biologists" out there somewhere that makes this claim. If so, please let me know what official biologist organisation made the claim and please link me to it. Otherwise, can we all acknowledge this claim to be a false one?

                    Besides, liberals had no problem being disruptive and talking out of turn when it’s consertives speaking.
                    Protesting a public speech is different to disrupting a private class.

                    If people are paying to learn at a school and a student is continually being disruptive, then it can become necessary to remove them from the class so that the other children can learn. Whereas if a controversial public figure (whos past speeches and writings are readily accessible online for those who do actually want to learn from them) has been publicly invited to give a one-off public speech at a particular location, then a political protest of it might make sense.

                    e.g. I'm considering protesting at Obama's speech when he comes to my country later this year to critique his heavy use of drone-strikes and military. Whereas I'm not considering going into the local Christian theological training college and sitting in a classroom there with the other students and then constantly interrupting the lecture by yelling angrily at the lecturer that God doesn't exist.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Religious Studies does not seem to be a major worth pursuing to begin with. If you're going to study religion, why not attend a place that actually practices it?
                      If you are going to study comparative religions the last place to study it would be the bastion of of one of them which, by definition, would present itself as the only true religion
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        No. Obviously not. Haven't you seen how liberal react to hecklers and the like (including those also from the left)?

                        Once again their "tolerance" only goes one way.
                        Well I've seen how Trump and his conservative supporters react to hecklers and it's not pretty.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          The statement made in the article was that it's the "official view of biologists" that there "are only two genders". In my view: Citation definitely needed. Does anyone wish to try and provide any sort of official statement from biologists saying there are two genders?
                          I once saw a TV program that talked about medical abnormalities. In this program they had a girl that was born with her heart located outside of her chest, so using your logic, we need a citation to say that the human heart is located in the chest, right? Funny thing is that humans are described as having two genders by about every biology text book on the planet and only people like you want to say otherwise. Medical flukes don’t change anything because the conditions you mention are so rare, that you’ll likely be able to fill a small office with those that cover those odd genetic flukes.

                          I looked around the internet for statements by biologists on the topic. The only statements I could easily find were biologists saying there weren't only 2 sexes and that it's a complicated issue. I cited an article from the world's top biology journal on that subject.
                          Apparently, you slept through biology 101. All of my health and biology courses described the male and female reproductive system, I don’t recall seeing a third one, did you?

                          I've noticed over the years that there does seem to be some sort of meme among US conservatives that 'biology says' there are only 2 sexes, which AFAICT is a false claim based on zero evidence other than US conservatives repeating it back and forth to each other. The article says the kid in his classes put forth the idea that there's an "official view of biologists" out there somewhere that makes this claim. If so, please let me know what official biologist organisation made the claim and please link me to it. Otherwise, can we all acknowledge this claim to be a false one?
                          So if I look around for human reproduction system, how many will I find?

                          Protesting a public speech is different to disrupting a private class.
                          So a closed event, where liberals were protesting, is a ‘public event’ now? Interesting...

                          If people are paying to learn at a school and a student is continually being disruptive, then it can become necessary to remove them from the class so that the other children can learn. Whereas if a controversial public figure (whos past speeches and writings are readily accessible online for those who do actually want to learn from them) has been publicly invited to give a one-off public speech at a particular location, then a political protest of it might make sense.
                          Don’t like the new rules?

                          [qyote]e.g. I'm considering protesting at Obama's speech when he comes to my country later this year to critique his heavy use of drone-strikes and military. Whereas I'm not considering going into the local Christian theological training college and sitting in a classroom there with the other students and then constantly interrupting the lecture by yelling angrily at the lecturer that God doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]

                          So this guy didn’t pay money for this course that he was kicked out from? Always amusing to hear how rules only apply to one side.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            15201198971865796654077023411977.jpg
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              No. Obviously not. Haven't you seen how liberal react to hecklers and the like (including those also from the left)?

                              Once again their "tolerance" only goes one way.
                              P1: A liberal did this.
                              C1: All liberals do this.
                              C2: We are justified in doing this to all liberals.

                              There's a couple problems with that reasoning.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                                P1: A liberal did this.
                                C1: All liberals do this.
                                C2: We are justified in doing this to all liberals.

                                There's a couple problems with that reasoning.
                                There's a problem with using "there's" like that.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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