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RIP Stephen

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  • RIP Stephen

    A legend has passed...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2
    I dont know much about him. I do know he worked exstensively on black holes.
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #3
      Rip
      "Obama is not a brown-skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare. You are thinking of Jesus." Episcopal Bishop of Arizona

      I remember WinAce. Gone but not forgotten.

      Comment


      • #4
        I read "A Brief History of Time" and it was very interesting and easy to understand. Gave me a lot to ponder.

        Comment


        • #5
          Something to enjoy... http://bgr.com/2018/03/14/stephen-ha...ght-interview/
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            I read "A Brief History of Time" and it was very interesting and easy to understand. Gave me a lot to ponder.
            "A Briefer History of Time" was also good. Also "The Grand Design" and "The Universe in a Nutshell"
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              A legend has passed...
              A "legend"?

              Hawking had a high IQ but he certainly wasn't a wise person and most definitely not a "legend" except maybe to those with Hawking's Materialistic/Atheistic inclinations.

              Heck, as you may well know Charles Manson had many, many followers that also regarded Manson as a "legend".

              The ONLY thing that I deeply lament is that Hawking did not find Christ before his death which means that he will be roasting in Hell for all eternity. There, neither his high IQ nor his fame is going to serve him in any way. So sad ...

              Hawking's words an instant after dying were, "Oops, I was wrong!" That's right, Stevie boy ... you were.

              Jorge

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                A "legend"?

                Hawking had a high IQ but he certainly wasn't a wise person and most definitely not a "legend" except maybe to those with Hawking's Materialistic/Atheistic inclinations.

                Heck, as you may well know Charles Manson had many, many followers that also regarded Manson as a "legend".

                The ONLY thing that I deeply lament is that Hawking did not find Christ before his death which means that he will be roasting in Hell for all eternity. There, neither his high IQ nor his fame is going to serve him in any way. So sad ...

                Hawking's words an instant after dying were, "Oops, I was wrong!" That's right, Stevie boy ... you were.

                Jorge
                Wow...

                Personally, I found him to be a brilliant man who's contributions to physics and astrophysics were substantial. He also was diagnosed with ALS in his early twenties and defied all odds in living with it for 50+ years. He was a man who lived life fully, despite his tremendous physical limitations. Comparing him to Charles Manson is just a tad over the top, IMO.

                As for where he is now...you believe he is in hell...and I believe he simply is not anymore. Which of us is correct will be determined after this life ends. I'm content to wait until then.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Wow...

                  Personally, I found him to be a brilliant man who's contributions to physics and astrophysics were substantial. He also was diagnosed with ALS in his early twenties and defied all odds in living with it for 50+ years. He was a man who lived life fully, despite his tremendous physical limitations. Comparing him to Charles Manson is just a tad over the top, IMO.

                  As for where he is now...you believe he is in hell...and I believe he simply is not anymore. Which of us is correct will be determined after this life ends. I'm content to wait until then.
                  The above post is a live example of the primary reason why I hardly spend any time here on TWeb. I'm referring to a combination of two things: a lack of reading comprehension and intellectual dishonesty that has no equal. Let me respond to the baseless, dishonest accusations that exemplify one or both of the two points I just brought up:

                  "Wow..."
                  Yes, "wow" indeed. You either don't know how to read and/or you choose interpret things in the worst/most dishonest possible way. Hmmm ... kind'a reminds me of a few others here on TWeb.


                  "Personally, I found him to be a brilliant man who's contributions to physics and astrophysics were substantial."
                  Did I or did I not state that he was brilliant (a very high IQ)? As for his "contribution", time will tell if what he "contributed" was worth anything other than just speculations.


                  "He also was diagnosed with ALS in his early twenties and defied all odds in living with it for 50+ years. He was a man who lived life fully, despite his tremendous physical limitations."
                  I know many people that despite their limitations live their life to the fullest. The alternative sucks. This doesn't make him exceptional, just part of a very large group.

                  "Comparing him to Charles Manson is just a tad over the top, IMO."
                  Where did I compare him to Manson? I simply said that many people regard Manson a "legend" (which is true - there are even cults/fan groups that revered Manson). Being regarded as a legend does not mean that the person actually IS a legend. Besides, I look at the deeper things - spiritual things. Are Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein "legends"? Both of those individuals are filthy rich but they are not "legends" - not in my book. They became filthy rich through financial crimes that should have them serving life in prison. Yet many on Wall Street regard them as "legends" ... as "financial geniuses".

                  "As for where he is now...you believe he is in hell...and I believe he simply is not anymore. Which of us is correct will be determined after this life ends. I'm content to wait until then."

                  If he did not repent and come to God then he is in Hell - period, end of story.
                  I do not want that for Hawking but that is what he is getting, deservedly so. It is not I that determines that. The righteous God of the Bible determines that. Hawkings' was never humble enough to listen to those that had his best interest in mind. His high IQ got in the way of his humility and so he made himself "god" - thinking his answers were above the truth that God provided. Fine - let him wallow in the hell of his own creation.

                  You believe that he simply "is no more".
                  That is your chosen belief that you cannot prove one way or another.

                  As for "being content to wait until then", you simply don''t know what you're talking about. You speak of it casually, as if you'd just make a correction and try again. NOPE! You get one shot at this and then it's game, set and match - there are no do-overs.


                  Jorge

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                    The above post is a live example of the primary reason why I hardly spend any time here on TWeb. I'm referring to a combination of two things: a lack of reading comprehension and intellectual dishonesty that has no equal. Let me respond to the baseless, dishonest accusations that exemplify one or both of the two points I just brought up:

                    "Wow..."
                    Yes, "wow" indeed. You either don't know how to read and/or you choose interpret things in the worst/most dishonest possible way. Hmmm ... kind'a reminds me of a few others here on TWeb.
                    My apologies if you took offense. It was an expression of surprise, not meaning to infer anything else.

                    Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                    "Personally, I found him to be a brilliant man who's contributions to physics and astrophysics were substantial."
                    Did I or did I not state that he was brilliant (a very high IQ)? As for his "contribution", time will tell if what he "contributed" was worth anything other than just speculations.
                    Yes - you did, and yes it will. I don't think I said anything about what you said - I clarified why I found him exceptional.

                    Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                    "He also was diagnosed with ALS in his early twenties and defied all odds in living with it for 50+ years. He was a man who lived life fully, despite his tremendous physical limitations."
                    I know many people that despite their limitations live their life to the fullest. The alternative sucks. This doesn't make him exceptional, just part of a very large group.
                    Actually, I find that entire group exceptional. Being a member of a group that does exceptional things does not, IMO, make one less exceptional.

                    Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                    "Comparing him to Charles Manson is just a tad over the top, IMO."
                    Where did I compare him to Manson? I simply said that many people regard Manson a "legend" (which is true - there are even cults/fan groups that revered Manson). Being regarded as a legend does not mean that the person actually IS a legend. Besides, I look at the deeper things - spiritual things. Are Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein "legends"? Both of those individuals are filthy rich but they are not "legends" - not in my book. They became filthy rich through financial crimes that should have them serving life in prison. Yet many on Wall Street regard them as "legends" ... as "financial geniuses".
                    I called him a legend - you pointed out Manson was also seen as a legend - ergo you were making a comparison. That much seems obvious. Your choice of Manson as the comparator was, IMO, over the top - and still is. To me, Mr Hawkin was a legend. It would have been adequate to simply note you do not consider him so.

                    Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                    "As for where he is now...you believe he is in hell...and I believe he simply is not anymore. Which of us is correct will be determined after this life ends. I'm content to wait until then."

                    If he did not repent and come to God then he is in Hell - period, end of story.
                    I accept you believe this to be true. That does not make it true. I believe you are wrong. That belief, of course, does not make me right. It is possible I am wrong. As I noted - which of us will turn out to be correct will only be determined at the end of our lives, and only if you are right, for obvious reasons.

                    Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                    I do not want that for Hawking but that is what he is getting, deservedly so. It is not I that determines that. The righteous God of the Bible determines that. Hawkings' was never humble enough to listen to those that had his best interest in mind. His high IQ got in the way of his humility and so he made himself "god" - thinking his answers were above the truth that God provided. Fine - let him wallow in the hell of his own creation.
                    Your words begin with "I do not want that for him" and "it's not you that determines that," but ends with a significant sense of vitriol. Of course it is hard to read emotion over an Internet connection, but "let him wallow in the hell of his own creation," smacks of more than a little...umm...I'm looking for the right word...judgment tinged with delight - or maybe indignation? It's hard to tell. You are saying a lot of things that would require you to look into the heart of the man. I thought it was the Christian position that only god can see there...?

                    Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                    You believe that he simply "is no more".
                    That is your chosen belief that you cannot prove one way or another.
                    "Chosen" is not exactly right. I believe what the available evidence tells me is most likely true. I don't "choose" to believe 2+2=4; the truth of it is self-evident to me. Likewise, I do not "choose" to believe god does not exist. Frankly, I neither wanted nor expected to be an atheist. I became one because of my experiences and explorations. But you are correct that I cannot "prove it" to you or anyone else. I can relate my reasons for believing as I do, but that's about it.

                    Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                    As for "being content to wait until then", you simply don''t know what you're talking about. You speak of it casually, as if you'd just make a correction and try again. NOPE! You get one shot at this and then it's game, set and match - there are no do-overs. [/COLOR]

                    Jorge
                    I am familiar with this particular belief. I have to admit it is one that has never made sense to me, even when I was a professed Christian. But, be that as it may, if that is what you believe, that is what you believe. I don't share that view, for obvious reasons.

                    Michel
                    Last edited by carpedm9587; 03-21-2018, 09:47 AM.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Jorge comparing Stephen Hawking to a socioopathic murderer like Charles Manson? I'd say that's a new low for him, but I'm not familiar enough with his past statements to make that proclamation.
                      Last edited by Duragizer; 03-21-2018, 08:26 PM.
                      "When the Western world accepted Christianity, Caesar conquered; and the received text of Western theology was edited by his lawyers…. The brief Galilean vision of humility flickered throughout the ages, uncertainly…. But the deeper idolatry, of the fashioning of God in the image of the Egyptian, Persian, and Roman imperial rulers, was retained. The Church gave unto God the attributes which belonged exclusively to Caesar."

                      — Alfred North Whitehead

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Duragizer View Post
                        Jorge comparing Stephen Hawking to a socioopathic murderer like Charles Manson? I'd say that's a new low for him, but I'm not familiar enough with his past statements to make that proclamation.
                        Thanks for helping to prove the point that I made in my last post.
                        I can always count on the usual flock of TWebbers to prove my point.

                        Jorge

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          My apologies if you took offense. It was an expression of surprise, not meaning to infer anything else.
                          No offense taken. I do not get offended by falsehoods, intended or not.


                          I called him a legend - you pointed out Manson was also seen as a legend - ergo you were making a comparison. That much seems obvious.
                          "Obvious" only if we use faulty logic. The subject was *legend*, not Hawking or Manson. Spelling it out, the status of *legend* is purely subjective, based on subjective criteria. One person's "legend" is another person's average, below-average or even criminal.

                          As an example: many (Neo-Nazis,, Skinheads, etc.) today worship Adolf Hitler . In their minds Hitler was a genius and a "legend". Under Hitler, a bankrupt nation came close to conquering the entire world. So, is Hitler a "legend"? Based on the latter criterion, Hitler may well be a "legend". But certainly not to me.

                          Hawking may be a "legend" to you and to many others but his attitude towards the spiritual realm and God make him a below-average specimen to me. That was my only point - what a *legend* actually is, not comparing him to Manson, Hitler or Mother Theresa.


                          Your choice of Manson as the comparator was, IMO, over the top - and still is. To me, Mr Hawkin was a legend. It would have been adequate to simply note you do not consider him so.
                          Yes, as I just finished explaining.


                          I accept you believe this to be true. That does not make it true. I believe you are wrong. That belief, of course, does not make me right. It is possible I am wrong. As I noted - which of us will turn out to be correct will only be determined at the end of our lives, and only if you are right, for obvious reasons.
                          I'll gently make the suggestion that you work really, REALLY hard on this issue - almost to the exclusion of everything else. It's an issue with eternal consequences and that is no exaggeration nor is it fear-mongering.



                          Your words begin with "I do not want that for him" and "it's not you that determines that," but ends with a significant sense of vitriol. Of course it is hard to read emotion over an Internet connection, but "let him wallow in the hell of his own creation," smacks of more than a little...umm...I'm looking for the right word...judgment tinged with delight - or maybe indignation? It's hard to tell. You are saying a lot of things that would require you to look into the heart of the man. I thought it was the Christian position that only god can see there...?
                          What you *perceive* is not necessarily what IS. I neither gain nor lose by being "delighted" about Hawking's eternity in Hell. "Vitriol" towards a person's eternity in Hell? NEVER! Maybe I should have done more for Hawking (?). Maybe I should have sent a personal letter to Hawking when he was still alive, a letter asking him to reconsider his position and offering my help (?). For that negligence (if it was negligence on my part) I may be held accountable - only God knows.

                          But YOU are still here and I am making YOU that offer. If you reject my offer (as I suspect you will ... as I suspect you have rejected the same from other Christians ... just as Hawking rejected that offer from many including his first wife) then it is all on YOU. Upon your death I will also not be "delighted" about your eternal status. I will simply say about you what I said about Hawking -- Hawking is where he chose to be. BTW, if I die before you then be really happy for me - I am where I have longed to be!


                          "Chosen" is not exactly right. I believe what the available evidence tells me is most likely true. I don't "choose" to believe 2+2=4; the truth of it is self-evident to me. Likewise, I do not "choose" to believe god does not exist. Frankly, I neither wanted nor expected to be an atheist. I became one because of my experiences and explorations. But you are correct that I cannot "prove it" to you or anyone else. I can relate my reasons for believing as I do, but that's about it.
                          In spiritual matters the exactly correct word is CHOICE. The "available evidence" is far, FAR more compelling against Materialism and favoring God than it is against God and favoring Materialism. People CHOOSE what they wish for myriad reasons but ultimately those reasons are spiritually-related.

                          That you chose to become (be) an Atheist may have been a matter of ignorance. There is a tremendous, 24/7/365 assault on people to reject God and accept Materialism. Many people have questions and don't get the answers they need. Just as nature abhors a vacuum, the soul abhors unanswered questions. People will fill their unanswered questions sometimes with whatever is "lying around". Since Materialistic answers are "lying around" everywhere - the bombardment is relentless - that's what they accept. Maybe that's what's going on in your case (?).

                          If so, many here on TWeb are certainly in your camp. They were once Christians .. they were once Biblical Creationists. Now they are ex-Christians, Theistic Evolutionists, Agnostics, etc. Wash, rinse, repeat. Same story, different lives.

                          I certainly don't have all the answers but I do have some answers. It is my duty to share this. Reach me by PM if you wish - or not, your choice. Here's my PEMA - jor27ge@cfl.rr.com. I also have a very large contact list of others that have answers I don't have. Keep in mind that no one has ALL the answers (except God, of course).


                          I am familiar with this particular belief. I have to admit it is one that has never made sense to me, even when I was a professed Christian. But, be that as it may, if that is what you believe, that is what you believe. I don't share that view, for obvious reasons.

                          Michel
                          As I said, it is a personal choice. Usually the choice is made to satisfy one's inner self, not to align with any external truth or evidence. People smoke because they like it, not because of the mountains of hard evidence supporting the fact that smoking is poison to the body. People do drugs for the same reason. People practice stealing, certain sexual lifestyles, perform abortions, murder, eat too much, over-indulge in material possessions, etc ... for the same reason -- to satisfy themselves in some way, not to do what is demonstrably correct. It's all as clear as daylight - all "obvious", using your word.

                          Best wishes, Michel.

                          Jorge
                          Last edited by Jorge; 03-22-2018, 07:09 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                            No offense taken. I do not get offended by falsehoods, intended or not.
                            I'm a little confused. How is "wow" a falsehood?

                            Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                            "Obvious" only if we use faulty logic. The subject was *legend*, not Hawking or Manson. Spelling it out, the status of *legend* is purely subjective, based on subjective criteria. One person's "legend" is another person's average, below-average or even criminal.

                            As an example: many (Neo-Nazis,, Skinheads, etc.) today worship Adolf Hitler . In their minds Hitler was a genius and a "legend". Under Hitler, a bankrupt nation came close to conquering the entire world. So, is Hitler a "legend"? Based on the latter criterion, Hitler may well be a "legend". But certainly not to me.

                            Hawking may be a "legend" to you and to many others but his attitude towards the spiritual realm and God make him a below-average specimen to me. That was my only point - what a *legend* actually is, not comparing him to Manson, Hitler or Mother Theresa.
                            That you see Mr. Hawkin as less than a legend is clear, Jorge. I certainly agree that one person's "legend" is another person's "not legend." I continue to hold Mr. Hawkin and his accomplishments and zest for life in high regard. I recognize you do not.

                            Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                            Yes, as I just finished explaining.

                            I'll gently make the suggestion that you work really, REALLY hard on this issue - almost to the exclusion of everything else. It's an issue with eternal consequences and that is no exaggeration nor is it fear-mongering.
                            Your concern is appreciated, Jorge. I recognize the sincerity of that concern. I think this may be the first time we have encountered one another here, so you may not know my background. I actually was Christian for most of the first half of my life, including several years intimately involved with my church and in formation for the catholic priesthood. I left all of that 30+ years ago after significant exploration and study. I am atheist now, and I frankly cannot imagine what would/could turn that around. I'm fairly certain of the truth of my beliefs, as I'm sure you are of yours.

                            Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                            What you *perceive* is not necessarily what IS. I neither gain nor lose by being "delighted" about Hawking's eternity in Hell. "Vitriol" towards a person's eternity in Hell? NEVER! Maybe I should have done more for Hawking (?). Maybe I should have sent a personal letter to Hawking when he was still alive, a letter asking him to reconsider his position and offering my help (?). For that negligence (if it was negligence on my part) I may be held accountable - only God knows.

                            But YOU are still here and I am making YOU that offer. If you reject my offer (as I suspect you will ... as I suspect you have rejected the same from other Christians ... just as Hawking rejected that offer from many including his first wife) then it is all on YOU. Upon your death I will also not be "delighted" about your eternal status. I will simply say about you what I said about Hawking -- Hawking is where he chose to be. BTW, if I die before you then be really happy for me - I am where I have longed to be!
                            This tone is very different from the previous posts, Jorge, so I am certainly open to the possibility that I misread your intent in the previous posts. For that I apologize. I have never rejected an offer of friendship, and don't plan to start now. If your offer, however, is dependent upon my conversion, I am afraid you are likely to be disappointed. That being said, if there are things you want to say, I will read them and tell you what I think.

                            Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                            In spiritual matters the exactly correct word is CHOICE. The "available evidence" is far, FAR more compelling against Materialism and favoring God than it is against God and favoring Materialism. People CHOOSE what they wish for myriad reasons but ultimately those reasons are spiritually-related.

                            That you chose to become (be) an Atheist may have been a matter of ignorance. There is a tremendous, 24/7/365 assault on people to reject God and accept Materialism. Many people have questions and don't get the answers they need. Just as nature abhors a vacuum, the soul abhors unanswered questions. People will fill their unanswered questions sometimes with whatever is "lying around". Since Materialistic answers are "lying around" everywhere - the bombardment is relentless - that's what they accept. Maybe that's what's going on in your case (?).

                            If so, many here on TWeb are certainly in your camp. They were once Christians .. they were once Biblical Creationists. Now they are ex-Christians, Theistic Evolutionists, Agnostics, etc. Wash, rinse, repeat. Same story, different lives.

                            I certainly don't have all the answers but I do have some answers. It is my duty to share this. Reach me by PM if you wish - or not, your choice. Here's my PEMA - jor27ge@cfl.rr.com. I also have a very large contact list of others that have answers I don't have. Keep in mind that no one has ALL the answers (except God, of course).

                            As I said, it is a personal choice. Usually the choice is made to satisfy one's inner self, not to align with any external truth or evidence. People smoke because they like it, not because of the mountains of hard evidence supporting the fact that smoking is poison to the body. People do drugs for the same reason. People practice stealing, certain sexual lifestyles, perform abortions, murder, eat too much, over-indulge in material possessions, etc ... for the same reason -- to satisfy themselves in some way, not to do what is demonstrably correct. It's all as clear as daylight - all "obvious", using your word.

                            Best wishes, Michel.

                            Jorge
                            Your offer is kind, Jorge. I will leave it to you to determine what you wish to share. As for your view on choice, I'm afraid I disagree. I am not atheist because I chose to be - I am atheist because that is where the evidence took me, as I noted before. I realize you believe the preponderance of evidence is for the Christan god, but that is not what I have found in my own journey. That being said, no one is perfect and it is always possible to discover new information. While I don't consider it very likely that I would ever return to my Christian roots, I am not closed to the possibility. If the evidence takes me there - that is where I will go. If not, then I will go where it takes me.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                              Thanks for helping to prove the point that I made in my last post.
                              I can always count on the usual flock of TWebbers to prove my point.

                              Jorge
                              That you're a disingenuous, slanderous, hypocritical, double-talking troll?

                              You need no one's help proving that.
                              "When the Western world accepted Christianity, Caesar conquered; and the received text of Western theology was edited by his lawyers…. The brief Galilean vision of humility flickered throughout the ages, uncertainly…. But the deeper idolatry, of the fashioning of God in the image of the Egyptian, Persian, and Roman imperial rulers, was retained. The Church gave unto God the attributes which belonged exclusively to Caesar."

                              — Alfred North Whitehead

                              Comment

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