A legend has passed...
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RIP Stephen
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RIP Stephen
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick DouglasTags: None
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Something to enjoy... http://bgr.com/2018/03/14/stephen-ha...ght-interview/The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI read "A Brief History of Time" and it was very interesting and easy to understand. Gave me a lot to ponder.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostA legend has passed...
Hawking had a high IQ but he certainly wasn't a wise person and most definitely not a "legend" except maybe to those with Hawking's Materialistic/Atheistic inclinations.
Heck, as you may well know Charles Manson had many, many followers that also regarded Manson as a "legend".
The ONLY thing that I deeply lament is that Hawking did not find Christ before his death which means that he will be roasting in Hell for all eternity. There, neither his high IQ nor his fame is going to serve him in any way. So sad ...
Hawking's words an instant after dying were, "Oops, I was wrong!" That's right, Stevie boy ... you were.
Jorge
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Originally posted by Jorge View PostA "legend"?
Hawking had a high IQ but he certainly wasn't a wise person and most definitely not a "legend" except maybe to those with Hawking's Materialistic/Atheistic inclinations.
Heck, as you may well know Charles Manson had many, many followers that also regarded Manson as a "legend".
The ONLY thing that I deeply lament is that Hawking did not find Christ before his death which means that he will be roasting in Hell for all eternity. There, neither his high IQ nor his fame is going to serve him in any way. So sad ...
Hawking's words an instant after dying were, "Oops, I was wrong!" That's right, Stevie boy ... you were.
Jorge
Personally, I found him to be a brilliant man who's contributions to physics and astrophysics were substantial. He also was diagnosed with ALS in his early twenties and defied all odds in living with it for 50+ years. He was a man who lived life fully, despite his tremendous physical limitations. Comparing him to Charles Manson is just a tad over the top, IMO.
As for where he is now...you believe he is in hell...and I believe he simply is not anymore. Which of us is correct will be determined after this life ends. I'm content to wait until then.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWow...
Personally, I found him to be a brilliant man who's contributions to physics and astrophysics were substantial. He also was diagnosed with ALS in his early twenties and defied all odds in living with it for 50+ years. He was a man who lived life fully, despite his tremendous physical limitations. Comparing him to Charles Manson is just a tad over the top, IMO.
As for where he is now...you believe he is in hell...and I believe he simply is not anymore. Which of us is correct will be determined after this life ends. I'm content to wait until then.
"Wow..."
Yes, "wow" indeed. You either don't know how to read and/or you choose interpret things in the worst/most dishonest possible way. Hmmm ... kind'a reminds me of a few others here on TWeb.
"Personally, I found him to be a brilliant man who's contributions to physics and astrophysics were substantial."
Did I or did I not state that he was brilliant (a very high IQ)? As for his "contribution", time will tell if what he "contributed" was worth anything other than just speculations.
"He also was diagnosed with ALS in his early twenties and defied all odds in living with it for 50+ years. He was a man who lived life fully, despite his tremendous physical limitations."
I know many people that despite their limitations live their life to the fullest. The alternative sucks. This doesn't make him exceptional, just part of a very large group.
"Comparing him to Charles Manson is just a tad over the top, IMO."
Where did I compare him to Manson? I simply said that many people regard Manson a "legend" (which is true - there are even cults/fan groups that revered Manson). Being regarded as a legend does not mean that the person actually IS a legend. Besides, I look at the deeper things - spiritual things. Are Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein "legends"? Both of those individuals are filthy rich but they are not "legends" - not in my book. They became filthy rich through financial crimes that should have them serving life in prison. Yet many on Wall Street regard them as "legends" ... as "financial geniuses".
"As for where he is now...you believe he is in hell...and I believe he simply is not anymore. Which of us is correct will be determined after this life ends. I'm content to wait until then."
If he did not repent and come to God then he is in Hell - period, end of story.
I do not want that for Hawking but that is what he is getting, deservedly so. It is not I that determines that. The righteous God of the Bible determines that. Hawkings' was never humble enough to listen to those that had his best interest in mind. His high IQ got in the way of his humility and so he made himself "god" - thinking his answers were above the truth that God provided. Fine - let him wallow in the hell of his own creation.
You believe that he simply "is no more".
That is your chosen belief that you cannot prove one way or another.
As for "being content to wait until then", you simply don''t know what you're talking about. You speak of it casually, as if you'd just make a correction and try again. NOPE! You get one shot at this and then it's game, set and match - there are no do-overs.
Jorge
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Originally posted by Jorge View PostThe above post is a live example of the primary reason why I hardly spend any time here on TWeb. I'm referring to a combination of two things: a lack of reading comprehension and intellectual dishonesty that has no equal. Let me respond to the baseless, dishonest accusations that exemplify one or both of the two points I just brought up:
"Wow..."
Yes, "wow" indeed. You either don't know how to read and/or you choose interpret things in the worst/most dishonest possible way. Hmmm ... kind'a reminds me of a few others here on TWeb.
Originally posted by Jorge View Post"Personally, I found him to be a brilliant man who's contributions to physics and astrophysics were substantial."
Did I or did I not state that he was brilliant (a very high IQ)? As for his "contribution", time will tell if what he "contributed" was worth anything other than just speculations.
Originally posted by Jorge View Post"He also was diagnosed with ALS in his early twenties and defied all odds in living with it for 50+ years. He was a man who lived life fully, despite his tremendous physical limitations."
I know many people that despite their limitations live their life to the fullest. The alternative sucks. This doesn't make him exceptional, just part of a very large group.
Originally posted by Jorge View Post"Comparing him to Charles Manson is just a tad over the top, IMO."
Where did I compare him to Manson? I simply said that many people regard Manson a "legend" (which is true - there are even cults/fan groups that revered Manson). Being regarded as a legend does not mean that the person actually IS a legend. Besides, I look at the deeper things - spiritual things. Are Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein "legends"? Both of those individuals are filthy rich but they are not "legends" - not in my book. They became filthy rich through financial crimes that should have them serving life in prison. Yet many on Wall Street regard them as "legends" ... as "financial geniuses".
Originally posted by Jorge View Post"As for where he is now...you believe he is in hell...and I believe he simply is not anymore. Which of us is correct will be determined after this life ends. I'm content to wait until then."
If he did not repent and come to God then he is in Hell - period, end of story.
Originally posted by Jorge View PostI do not want that for Hawking but that is what he is getting, deservedly so. It is not I that determines that. The righteous God of the Bible determines that. Hawkings' was never humble enough to listen to those that had his best interest in mind. His high IQ got in the way of his humility and so he made himself "god" - thinking his answers were above the truth that God provided. Fine - let him wallow in the hell of his own creation.
Originally posted by Jorge View PostYou believe that he simply "is no more".
That is your chosen belief that you cannot prove one way or another.
Originally posted by Jorge View PostAs for "being content to wait until then", you simply don''t know what you're talking about. You speak of it casually, as if you'd just make a correction and try again. NOPE! You get one shot at this and then it's game, set and match - there are no do-overs. [/COLOR]
Jorge
MichelLast edited by carpedm9587; 03-21-2018, 09:47 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Jorge comparing Stephen Hawking to a socioopathic murderer like Charles Manson? I'd say that's a new low for him, but I'm not familiar enough with his past statements to make that proclamation.Last edited by Duragizer; 03-21-2018, 08:26 PM."When the Western world accepted Christianity, Caesar conquered; and the received text of Western theology was edited by his lawyers…. The brief Galilean vision of humility flickered throughout the ages, uncertainly…. But the deeper idolatry, of the fashioning of God in the image of the Egyptian, Persian, and Roman imperial rulers, was retained. The Church gave unto God the attributes which belonged exclusively to Caesar."
— Alfred North Whitehead
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Originally posted by Duragizer View PostJorge comparing Stephen Hawking to a socioopathic murderer like Charles Manson? I'd say that's a new low for him, but I'm not familiar enough with his past statements to make that proclamation.
I can always count on the usual flock of TWebbers to prove my point.
Jorge
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostMy apologies if you took offense. It was an expression of surprise, not meaning to infer anything else.
I called him a legend - you pointed out Manson was also seen as a legend - ergo you were making a comparison. That much seems obvious.
As an example: many (Neo-Nazis,, Skinheads, etc.) today worship Adolf Hitler . In their minds Hitler was a genius and a "legend". Under Hitler, a bankrupt nation came close to conquering the entire world. So, is Hitler a "legend"? Based on the latter criterion, Hitler may well be a "legend". But certainly not to me.
Hawking may be a "legend" to you and to many others but his attitude towards the spiritual realm and God make him a below-average specimen to me. That was my only point - what a *legend* actually is, not comparing him to Manson, Hitler or Mother Theresa.
Your choice of Manson as the comparator was, IMO, over the top - and still is. To me, Mr Hawkin was a legend. It would have been adequate to simply note you do not consider him so.
I accept you believe this to be true. That does not make it true. I believe you are wrong. That belief, of course, does not make me right. It is possible I am wrong. As I noted - which of us will turn out to be correct will only be determined at the end of our lives, and only if you are right, for obvious reasons.
Your words begin with "I do not want that for him" and "it's not you that determines that," but ends with a significant sense of vitriol. Of course it is hard to read emotion over an Internet connection, but "let him wallow in the hell of his own creation," smacks of more than a little...umm...I'm looking for the right word...judgment tinged with delight - or maybe indignation? It's hard to tell. You are saying a lot of things that would require you to look into the heart of the man. I thought it was the Christian position that only god can see there...?
But YOU are still here and I am making YOU that offer. If you reject my offer (as I suspect you will ... as I suspect you have rejected the same from other Christians ... just as Hawking rejected that offer from many including his first wife) then it is all on YOU. Upon your death I will also not be "delighted" about your eternal status. I will simply say about you what I said about Hawking -- Hawking is where he chose to be. BTW, if I die before you then be really happy for me - I am where I have longed to be!
"Chosen" is not exactly right. I believe what the available evidence tells me is most likely true. I don't "choose" to believe 2+2=4; the truth of it is self-evident to me. Likewise, I do not "choose" to believe god does not exist. Frankly, I neither wanted nor expected to be an atheist. I became one because of my experiences and explorations. But you are correct that I cannot "prove it" to you or anyone else. I can relate my reasons for believing as I do, but that's about it.
That you chose to become (be) an Atheist may have been a matter of ignorance. There is a tremendous, 24/7/365 assault on people to reject God and accept Materialism. Many people have questions and don't get the answers they need. Just as nature abhors a vacuum, the soul abhors unanswered questions. People will fill their unanswered questions sometimes with whatever is "lying around". Since Materialistic answers are "lying around" everywhere - the bombardment is relentless - that's what they accept. Maybe that's what's going on in your case (?).
If so, many here on TWeb are certainly in your camp. They were once Christians .. they were once Biblical Creationists. Now they are ex-Christians, Theistic Evolutionists, Agnostics, etc. Wash, rinse, repeat. Same story, different lives.
I certainly don't have all the answers but I do have some answers. It is my duty to share this. Reach me by PM if you wish - or not, your choice. Here's my PEMA - [email protected]. I also have a very large contact list of others that have answers I don't have. Keep in mind that no one has ALL the answers (except God, of course).
I am familiar with this particular belief. I have to admit it is one that has never made sense to me, even when I was a professed Christian. But, be that as it may, if that is what you believe, that is what you believe. I don't share that view, for obvious reasons.
Michel
Best wishes, Michel.
JorgeLast edited by Jorge; 03-22-2018, 07:09 AM.
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Originally posted by Jorge View PostNo offense taken. I do not get offended by falsehoods, intended or not.
Originally posted by Jorge View Post"Obvious" only if we use faulty logic. The subject was *legend*, not Hawking or Manson. Spelling it out, the status of *legend* is purely subjective, based on subjective criteria. One person's "legend" is another person's average, below-average or even criminal.
As an example: many (Neo-Nazis,, Skinheads, etc.) today worship Adolf Hitler . In their minds Hitler was a genius and a "legend". Under Hitler, a bankrupt nation came close to conquering the entire world. So, is Hitler a "legend"? Based on the latter criterion, Hitler may well be a "legend". But certainly not to me.
Hawking may be a "legend" to you and to many others but his attitude towards the spiritual realm and God make him a below-average specimen to me. That was my only point - what a *legend* actually is, not comparing him to Manson, Hitler or Mother Theresa.
Originally posted by Jorge View PostYes, as I just finished explaining.
I'll gently make the suggestion that you work really, REALLY hard on this issue - almost to the exclusion of everything else. It's an issue with eternal consequences and that is no exaggeration nor is it fear-mongering.
Originally posted by Jorge View PostWhat you *perceive* is not necessarily what IS. I neither gain nor lose by being "delighted" about Hawking's eternity in Hell. "Vitriol" towards a person's eternity in Hell? NEVER! Maybe I should have done more for Hawking (?). Maybe I should have sent a personal letter to Hawking when he was still alive, a letter asking him to reconsider his position and offering my help (?). For that negligence (if it was negligence on my part) I may be held accountable - only God knows.
But YOU are still here and I am making YOU that offer. If you reject my offer (as I suspect you will ... as I suspect you have rejected the same from other Christians ... just as Hawking rejected that offer from many including his first wife) then it is all on YOU. Upon your death I will also not be "delighted" about your eternal status. I will simply say about you what I said about Hawking -- Hawking is where he chose to be. BTW, if I die before you then be really happy for me - I am where I have longed to be!
Originally posted by Jorge View PostIn spiritual matters the exactly correct word is CHOICE. The "available evidence" is far, FAR more compelling against Materialism and favoring God than it is against God and favoring Materialism. People CHOOSE what they wish for myriad reasons but ultimately those reasons are spiritually-related.
That you chose to become (be) an Atheist may have been a matter of ignorance. There is a tremendous, 24/7/365 assault on people to reject God and accept Materialism. Many people have questions and don't get the answers they need. Just as nature abhors a vacuum, the soul abhors unanswered questions. People will fill their unanswered questions sometimes with whatever is "lying around". Since Materialistic answers are "lying around" everywhere - the bombardment is relentless - that's what they accept. Maybe that's what's going on in your case (?).
If so, many here on TWeb are certainly in your camp. They were once Christians .. they were once Biblical Creationists. Now they are ex-Christians, Theistic Evolutionists, Agnostics, etc. Wash, rinse, repeat. Same story, different lives.
I certainly don't have all the answers but I do have some answers. It is my duty to share this. Reach me by PM if you wish - or not, your choice. Here's my PEMA - [email protected]. I also have a very large contact list of others that have answers I don't have. Keep in mind that no one has ALL the answers (except God, of course).
As I said, it is a personal choice. Usually the choice is made to satisfy one's inner self, not to align with any external truth or evidence. People smoke because they like it, not because of the mountains of hard evidence supporting the fact that smoking is poison to the body. People do drugs for the same reason. People practice stealing, certain sexual lifestyles, perform abortions, murder, eat too much, over-indulge in material possessions, etc ... for the same reason -- to satisfy themselves in some way, not to do what is demonstrably correct. It's all as clear as daylight - all "obvious", using your word.
Best wishes, Michel.
JorgeThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Jorge View PostThanks for helping to prove the point that I made in my last post.
I can always count on the usual flock of TWebbers to prove my point.
Jorge
You need no one's help proving that."When the Western world accepted Christianity, Caesar conquered; and the received text of Western theology was edited by his lawyers…. The brief Galilean vision of humility flickered throughout the ages, uncertainly…. But the deeper idolatry, of the fashioning of God in the image of the Egyptian, Persian, and Roman imperial rulers, was retained. The Church gave unto God the attributes which belonged exclusively to Caesar."
— Alfred North Whitehead
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