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Book Plunge: Finding The Will Of God, A Pagan Notion?

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  • Book Plunge: Finding The Will Of God, A Pagan Notion?

    How can we know the will of God?

    The link can be found here.

    ----

    I've long been questionable of the idea we have today of finding the will of God. I largely consider it part of the me-centered idea of Christianity. In seminary, I remember my roommate and I hearing some missionaries talk about going overseas and having people ask them questions after their lessons along the lines of "How can I hear the voice of God?" No one ever seems to question if this is a normative practice or not.

    I was curious to see what Bruce Waltke would have to say about these ideas and especially any ways the pagans tried to do such things. While Waltke does have some good points in his book, it sometimes looked like the idea of a pagan notion was an add-on to get readers. There is a little book about the things pagans did to find the will of the gods, but most of the material is how Christians should make wise decisions.

    There is nothing wrong with this, but I would like to have seen more. Still, Waltke does go to the right places. He takes us to Scripture and points out that we need to apply wisdom to our decisions. I find it amazing that so many people think God would give us a timeless book such as Proverbs to encourage us to make wise decisions, but then He would turn around and say, "But hey, forget all of that in the new covenant. I am going to make your decisions for you."

    Waltke is also right that too many Christians have a notion of God hiding something from them and they have to work to discover it. The very premise behind this is that God has an individual will for the life of each and every Christian. Then after that is that this will is something that we are supposed to find out. Then after that comes that if we use certain techniques we will find out what that will is. All of this is highly questionable.*

    I would have liked to have seen something more also on our emphasis on feelings today as determining the will of God. I recall several church services that had pastors telling me to give as a I felt led when the offering plate went around. Nothing from 2 Corinthians 8-9 is ever said about how God loves a cheerful giver. If anything, many times when the plate is passed around, many of us don't feel like giving anything. Maybe that's why so many people don't and think that they can in the end justify their bad decision by doing what I call "Punting to the Holy Spirit."

    If you've never read something like this, Waltke's book is good, but I think honestly a far greater treatment can be found in a work such as*Decision Making and the Will of God. I do still think that this is an area Christians need to really discuss. The modern paradigm seriously needs to be called into question.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    My church had a class based on Henry Blackaby's Experiencing God, which supposedly taught you how to listen to God and find out his will for you.

    I came away disappointed. The class basically left you with the feeling that if you didn't know God's personal plan for you at every turn then you somehow were the one who was deficient, or maybe you didn't belong to God at all. One of the phrases they threw out was,

    John 8:47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

    That was pretty sucky.

    Comment


    • #3
      Nick, could you please make it a point to put the title and author of the book you're reviewing in the first line or something? I don't think people should have to resort to google to figure out if the "pagan notion" bit is part of the title or a question you raise about the title.

      IMO, a much better prayer than "God, what is Your will for me?" is "God, help me to do Your will." Of course, a solid grounding in the scriptures makes it easier to do that.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #4
        Nick,

        I second the recommendation Garry Friesens' book "Decision Making and the Will of God. A Real eye opener. I taught a Sunday School series on the book. Needless to say, I had several people a bit miffed at me for suggesting God's Will for you life it to do what's already been told of us...in the Bible.
        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes, this whole finding God's personal will for your life is a recipe for crazy-making. I shudder to think of all the lives that were temporarily or totally ruined from uncritically accepting a lot of this stuff.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            IMO, a much better prayer than "God, what is Your will for me?" is "God, help me to do Your will." Of course, a solid grounding in the scriptures makes it easier to do that.
            Perhaps some people wrestle with the tension between some of Jesus' and the Apostle's more radical commands in light of the book of proverbs, which advocates for a more tranquil, average way of life.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              Perhaps some people wrestle with the tension between some of Jesus' and the Apostle's more radical commands in light of the book of proverbs, which advocates for a more tranquil, average way of life.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                You stated that a better prayer would be along the lines of: "God, help me to do Your will". You stated that a "solid grounding in the scriptures" can help achieve that. I stated that a "solid grounding in scripture" is difficult to achieve with disparate voices within the scriptures. Some people live radical lives because of Jesus' commands. Others live more tranquil, cloistered lives because they are applying wisdom from the book for proverbs, for example.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                  You stated that a better prayer would be along the lines of: "God, help me to do Your will". You stated that a "solid grounding in the scriptures" can help achieve that. I stated that a "solid grounding in scripture" is difficult to achieve with disparate voices within the scriptures. Some people live radical lives because of Jesus' commands. Others live more tranquil, cloistered lives because they are applying wisdom from the book for proverbs, for example.
                  Well, yes, I got that much. I'm wondering how Proverbs is radically different from the gospel, is all.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Well, yes, I got that much. I'm wondering how Proverbs is radically different from the gospel, is all.
                    Proverbs isn't radically different from the gospel. Rather, a good selection of verses can be taken from proverbs and applied to our lives, which would serve as a preventative to following through with more radical sacrifices advocated by Jesus and his Apostle's -- such as giving away all one's wealth or not storing it up, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc. Select proverbs would easily dissuade someone from taking such measures.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      Proverbs isn't radically different from the gospel. Rather, a good selection of verses can be taken from proverbs and applied to our lives, which would serve as a preventative to following through with more radical sacrifices advocated by Jesus and his Apostle's -- such as giving away all one's wealth or not storing it up, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc. Select proverbs would easily dissuade someone from taking such measures.
                      You seem reluctant to provide actual examples. Nonetheless, a solid grounding in the scriptures should more or less rule out cherry-picking of verses in order to set up conundrums; rather, a solid grounding in the scriptures would seek to synthesize the totality of scripture and apply discernment to when various possible actions are best suited to be put into practice.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        You seem reluctant to provide actual examples.
                        You seem reluctant to ask.

                        Nonetheless, a solid grounding in the scriptures should more or less rule out cherry-picking of verses in order to set up conundrums
                        Right. A solid grounding in scripture should result in accepting scripture as it is.

                        a solid grounding in the scriptures would seek to synthesize the totality of scripture
                        That's quite a formidable task, and perhaps a misguided one.

                        and apply discernment to when various possible actions are best suited to be put into practice.
                        That seems sufficiently vague and highly subjective to the point of cherry picking what we will follow and what we will disregard.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "And I am confident in the Lord that I myself will come soon." (Php 2:24)

                          Paul seems here to be certain of the Lord's will in an action he will take. But then in regard to going to dinner with an unbeliever, he seems to say "do as you wish!":

                          "If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience." (1 Co 10:27–28)

                          I think part of the problem is that the will of God is viewed as a one-track path, with only one choice at any turn. It seems instead that the will of God has room within it for non-sinful choices to be made, rather than just one choice at each juncture:

                          "So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does better.*A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord.*In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God." (1 Co 7:38–40)

                          But I believe that God will give specific direction about what to do, if that is needed:

                          "Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. So they passed by Mysia and went down to Troas. During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them." (Ac 16:6–10)

                          So the key is to be continually listening, and obeying as best we know how whenever we may think we have heard from the Lord, and he will guide us. And the rest is all open!

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                            You seem reluctant to ask.



                            Right. A solid grounding in scripture should result in accepting scripture as it is.



                            That's quite a formidable task, and perhaps a misguided one.



                            That seems sufficiently vague and highly subjective to the point of cherry picking what we will follow and what we will disregard.
                            Deflection and avoidance of the issues at hand duly noted. I'm beginning to reconsider the idea of taking you seriously. Did you have a point, or were you merely attempting to sow confusion? Continued avoidance will merely confirm the latter position. I'm looking for meat here, and your response is leaving me starving.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As for the OP, I have a hard time considering how "finding the will of God" is a "me centered" thing. Surely nothing could be less self centered than seeking to do the will of God. I do mean "finding the will of God" in the most general sense, and not referring to those looking for actual voice instruction or whatever.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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