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Causality

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  • Causality

    So I had an idea....(fade in dream sequence)...

    Lights come up on a vast, infinite expanse. It has always been exactly as it is...a tidal flow of (something) not unlike an ocean. It is not expanding. It is not contracting. It is not conscious. It simply is, and the energy in this expanse is in constant motion. It always has been. Every once in a while, the random flow of this (something) randomly spawns a singularity, which drops out of the expanse into its own dimension, explodes, and expands until it experiences heat death in that dimension. Other such explosions have occurred infinity backwards in time, and others will occur infinitely forward in time. Each singularity spawns its own, self-contained, "universe" that is no longer related to the expanse, and no longer associated with any other such singularity. Some of these singularities explode and expand in the blink of an eye. Others have properties that tear them apart internally and they never form cohesive structures. Others have properties that cause galaxies, stars, and planets to form. Some have life - some do not. Some have sentient beings - some do not.

    ...(fade out dream sequence)...

    And tell me why such a scenario is not a perfectly reasonably possibility? It does not depend on an infiinite chain of causality, because the expanse is itself infinite and uncaused. It is also not conscious, and the generation of "universes" is a perfectly common event in the "something." That our particular universe is structured/ordered is perfectly reasonable in the context of "an infinity of universes."

    Thoughts?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2
    Personally I think it is plausible. The problem, the evidence does not seem to support it. I also hold all causes are finite and temporal. In any case an uncaused existence is required. Once we go beyond what we can observe and test we are in metaphysics, are we not?
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      So I had an idea....(fade in dream sequence)...

      Lights come up on a vast, infinite expanse. It has always been exactly as it is...a tidal flow of (something) not unlike an ocean. It is not expanding. It is not contracting. It is not conscious. It simply is, and the energy in this expanse is in constant motion. It always has been. Every once in a while, the random flow of this (something) randomly spawns a singularity, which drops out of the expanse into its own dimension, explodes, and expands until it experiences heat death in that dimension. Other such explosions have occurred infinity backwards in time, and others will occur infinitely forward in time. Each singularity spawns its own, self-contained, "universe" that is no longer related to the expanse, and no longer associated with any other such singularity. Some of these singularities explode and expand in the blink of an eye. Others have properties that tear them apart internally and they never form cohesive structures. Others have properties that cause galaxies, stars, and planets to form. Some have life - some do not. Some have sentient beings - some do not.

      ...(fade out dream sequence)...

      And tell me why such a scenario is not a perfectly reasonably possibility? It does not depend on an infiinite chain of causality, because the expanse is itself infinite and uncaused. It is also not conscious, and the generation of "universes" is a perfectly common event in the "something." That our particular universe is structured/ordered is perfectly reasonable in the context of "an infinity of universes."

      Thoughts?
      And if this 'expanse' happens to be sentient but always was and always will be, and it forms these singularities because it wants to and decides to take interest in some of them ... why wouldn't this not also be perfectly reasonable idea?

      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        So I had an idea....(fade in dream sequence)...

        Lights come up on a vast, infinite expanse. It has always been exactly as it is...a tidal flow of (something) not unlike an ocean. It is not expanding. It is not contracting. It is not conscious. It simply is, and the energy in this expanse is in constant motion. It always has been. Every once in a while, the random flow of this (something) randomly spawns a singularity, which drops out of the expanse into its own dimension, explodes, and expands until it experiences heat death in that dimension. Other such explosions have occurred infinity backwards in time, and others will occur infinitely forward in time. Each singularity spawns its own, self-contained, "universe" that is no longer related to the expanse, and no longer associated with any other such singularity. Some of these singularities explode and expand in the blink of an eye. Others have properties that tear them apart internally and they never form cohesive structures. Others have properties that cause galaxies, stars, and planets to form. Some have life - some do not. Some have sentient beings - some do not.

        ...(fade out dream sequence)...

        And tell me why such a scenario is not a perfectly reasonably possibility? It does not depend on an infiinite chain of causality, because the expanse is itself infinite and uncaused. It is also not conscious, and the generation of "universes" is a perfectly common event in the "something." That our particular universe is structured/ordered is perfectly reasonable in the context of "an infinity of universes."

        Thoughts?
        People can come up with any number of imaginary scenarios, Carpe. Just because an idea is plausible doesn't make it so. Just because you can imagine it doesn't make it real. Isn't that why you don't believe that "God did it?"


        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          And if this 'expanse' happens to be sentient but always was and always will be, and it forms these singularities because it wants to and decides to take interest in some of them ... why wouldn't this not also be perfectly reasonable idea?

          Jim
          An 'expanse' meaning what? ". . . It has always been exactly as it is...a tidal flow of . . ." is a description of it being of finite and temporal components.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Personally I think it is plausible. The problem, the evidence does not seem to support it. I also hold all causes are finite and temporal. In any case an uncaused existence is required. Once we go beyond what we can observe and test we are in metaphysics, are we not?
            What evidence does not support it? If such a model were true, we are inside one of those universes and we have no means for peering outside the universe. We don't know what preceeded or precipitated the Big Bang.

            Obviously, this is not a scientific proposition because there is no means I know of to test the scenario. It is more in line with a thought experiment. I'm looking to see what about this hypothetical is unreasonable or makes the idea a non-starter.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              People can come up with any number of imaginary scenarios, Carpe. Just because an idea is plausible doesn't make it so. Just because you can imagine it doesn't make it real. Isn't that why you don't believe that "God did it?"

              That was not the purpose of the thought experiment, Sparko. The purpose was to see if there is anything about the scenario that is irrational or even implausible. The scenario is a thought experiment - not a scientific claim.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                And if this 'expanse' happens to be sentient but always was and always will be, and it forms these singularities because it wants to and decides to take interest in some of them ... why wouldn't this not also be perfectly reasonable idea?

                Jim
                It is certainly not the only possible idea. I have frequently said that there is nothing irrational about the idea of a god and, if such a being existed, no reason it could not do anything that isn't itself a contradiction (e.g., make a square circle). The question was, is the hypothetical scenario also reasonable - without sentience?
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  An 'expanse' meaning what? ". . . It has always been exactly as it is...a tidal flow of . . ." is a description of it being of finite and temporal components.
                  It is hard to describe anything outside of our universe without using terms that relate to our universe. "Expanse" implies space. "Tidal flow" implies time. I have no idea what this "stuff" or "something" could be - or the nature of its existence. But I am suggesting the existence of an uncaused, infinite "soup" whose nature is such that it simply, and randomly, spawns singularities. It has always done so. It will always do so. What this "soup" is made of, whether it exists in time or in space are all unknowns.

                  Mentally, since I am bound by the images of what I know, I imagine it as an infinite "cloud" of some energy/matter matrix whose very nature is to be in random motion. It is this random motion that creates the conditions for singularities to occasionally (or frequently?) form.

                  The purpose of the thought experiment (for me) is this: is there something about this scenario - this hypothetical - that is inherently impossible/irrational?
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    That was not the purpose of the thought experiment, Sparko. The purpose was to see if there is anything about the scenario that is irrational or even implausible. The scenario is a thought experiment - not a scientific claim.
                    Then why place it in the Natural Science 301 forum?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                      Then why place it in the Natural Science 301 forum?
                      Because I saw it as a naturalistic possibility for the universe. If it belongs elsewhere - please feel free to move it.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        That was not the purpose of the thought experiment, Sparko. The purpose was to see if there is anything about the scenario that is irrational or even implausible. The scenario is a thought experiment - not a scientific claim.
                        Sure it is plausible.

                        What if there is a kid sitting at his computer and he is running some software program like the SIMS, SIM Universe, and we are in that? That is plausible too.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Sure it is plausible.

                          What if there is a kid sitting at his computer and he is running some software program like the SIMS, SIM Universe, and we are in that? That is plausible too.
                          I have seen the "we're in a virtual reality world" argument. It's interesting. It's not clear to me that it addresses the "first cause" or "Cosmological" argument.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I have seen the "we're in a virtual reality world" argument. It's interesting. It's not clear to me that it addresses the "first cause" or "Cosmological" argument.
                            It's VR all the way down.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              It's VR all the way down.
                              ...which creates the infinite regress problem, of course.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment

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