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Causality

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Seems to me that if you have effects without a cause we may as well just call those miracles...
    I have no idea whether or not the concepts apply, or apply in the same way, outside this thing we call "our universe." Like you, I am limited to experiences from within the universe. I don't even know if I can grasp something as real/possible outside. My mind tells me that principles like mathematics and logic are not just universal within the universe - but "outside" it as well, if there even IS an "outside." But cause/effect is an observation about how this universe functions. In classical physics, every effect has a specific cause (or combination of causes). But we have already seen that hard relationship does not necessarily hold in quantum mechanics. We have evidence of effects temporally before causes. We have examples of mutual causality (i.e., A causes B causes A). So who is to know what cause/effect look like "outside" this universe?

    As for "miracle," I suppose we can label everything we don't understand, or what appears to violate how we think something should work, a "miracle." History tells me that miraculous explanations give way to scientific ones, and it never goes the other way. That suggests to me that we jump to "it's a miracle" far too quickly. I prefer "I don't know."
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      I have no idea whether or not the concepts apply, or apply in the same way, outside this thing we call "our universe." Like you, I am limited to experiences from within the universe. I don't even know if I can grasp something as real/possible outside. My mind tells me that principles like mathematics and logic are not just universal within the universe - but "outside" it as well, if there even IS an "outside." But cause/effect is an observation about how this universe functions. In classical physics, every effect has a specific cause (or combination of causes). But we have already seen that hard relationship does not necessarily hold in quantum mechanics. We have evidence of effects temporally before causes. We have examples of mutual causality (i.e., A causes B causes A). So who is to know what cause/effect look like "outside" this universe?

      As for "miracle," I suppose we can label everything we don't understand, or what appears to violate how we think something should work, a "miracle." History tells me that miraculous explanations give way to scientific ones, and it never goes the other way. That suggests to me that we jump to "it's a miracle" far too quickly. I prefer "I don't know."
      so basically your thought experiment boils down to:

      "something unimaginable somehow created the universe"

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        I have no idea whether or not the concepts apply, or apply in the same way, outside this thing we call "our universe." Like you, I am limited to experiences from within the universe. I don't even know if I can grasp something as real/possible outside. My mind tells me that principles like mathematics and logic are not just universal within the universe - but "outside" it as well, if there even IS an "outside." But cause/effect is an observation about how this universe functions. In classical physics, every effect has a specific cause (or combination of causes). But we have already seen that hard relationship does not necessarily hold in quantum mechanics. We have evidence of effects temporally before causes. We have examples of mutual causality (i.e., A causes B causes A). So who is to know what cause/effect look like "outside" this universe?
        Carp, I would like to see where QM actually violates the cause and effect principle. I don't think it does. We may be ignorant of certain causes, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

        As for "miracle," I suppose we can label everything we don't understand, or what appears to violate how we think something should work, a "miracle." History tells me that miraculous explanations give way to scientific ones, and it never goes the other way. That suggests to me that we jump to "it's a miracle" far too quickly. I prefer "I don't know."
        But if you have effects without causes then how can science even investigate such things, even in principle? You could literally have things popping into existence with no cause. Makes the miracles in the Bible sound tame...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          so basically your thought experiment boils down to:

          "something unimaginable somehow created the universe"
          Apparently...
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Apparently...
            Maybe God did it.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Maybe God did it.
              Maybe, maybe the universe was created out of nothing, or maybe, and more likely in my opinion, it always existed. nihil ex nihilo!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Carp, I would like to see where QM actually violates the cause and effect principle. I don't think it does. We may be ignorant of certain causes, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
                I don't think I said "causes don't exist." I did speculate about whether they necessarily exist outside this universe - which we cannot know because we are bound to this universe. But QM shows causal relationships that don't behave as we think are used to thinking in classical physics (e.g., the notion of A causing B causing A). If this "stuff" was comprised of matter with this causal relationship, a form of mutal causation, why would this note possible address the issue of infinite regress? And is effect can precede cause, does that not also potentially impact the infinite regression problem? There's a decent article here. The author is clear that causality is not eliminated - but there is an interesting side note about the probablistic nature of some aspects of quantum mechanics.

                Originally posted by seer View Post
                But if you have effects without causes then how can science even investigate such things, even in principle? You could literally have things popping into existence with no cause. Makes the miracles in the Bible sound tame...
                If effects can exist with causes, it is not clear to me it can be investigated - at least not based on what I know today. My mind cannot even grasp that notion, however. I stuggle enough with some of the wierd things coming out of QM. However, I do not think effects can exist without causes - at least not based on what I know now.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  I don't think I said "causes don't exist." I did speculate about whether they necessarily exist outside this universe - which we cannot know because we are bound to this universe. But QM shows causal relationships that don't behave as we think are used to thinking in classical physics (e.g., the notion of A causing B causing A). If this "stuff" was comprised of matter with this causal relationship, a form of mutual causation, why would this note possible address the issue of infinite regress? And is effect can precede cause, does that not also potentially impact the infinite regression problem? There's a decent article here. The author is clear that causality is not eliminated - but there is an interesting side note about the probablistic nature of some aspects of quantum mechanics.

                  I'm not sure how the link changes anything, but no I do not think this in any way effects the infinite regression problem. How would mutual causation? And I don't for a second believe that an effect can precede a cause. What does that even mean?


                  If effects can exist with causes, it is not clear to me it can be investigated - at least not based on what I know today. My mind cannot even grasp that notion, however. I stuggle enough with some of the wierd things coming out of QM. However, I do not think effects can exist without causes - at least not based on what I know now.
                  Then in your theory we are back to infinite regression.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    I'm not sure how the link changes anything, but no I do not think this in any way effects the infinite regression problem. How would mutual causation? And I don't for a second believe that an effect can precede a cause. What does that even mean?
                    QM is full of things that us lay people barely understand: spooky action at a distance, cause preceding effect (or retrocausality), quantum entanglement, and mutual causation. As Richard Feynman once said, "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics."

                    Or as Shakespeare/Hamlet once said: "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Then in your theory we are back to infinite regression.
                    Not necessarily. See my comments above. You are thinking in terms of the simply causal chain of classical physics. QM suggests things may be far more complex.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Maybe God did it.
                      If I had any reason to believe such a being existed, I might agree with you. I don't, so I don't.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        QM is full of things that us lay people barely understand: spooky action at a distance, cause preceding effect (or retrocausality), quantum entanglement, and mutual causation. As Richard Feynman once said, "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics."

                        Or as Shakespeare/Hamlet once said: "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."



                        Not necessarily. See my comments above. You are thinking in terms of the simply causal chain of classical physics. QM suggests things may be far more complex.
                        and you think this immensely complex universe just came to be naturally? That's harder for me to believe than to believe in God.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          and you think this immensely complex universe just came to be naturally? That's harder for me to believe than to believe in God.
                          I differentiate between "awe" and "worship." I am in awe of our universe - and there is much of it I do not understand. I do not substitute "god did it" for "I don't know."
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I differentiate between "awe" and "worship." I am in awe of our universe - and there is much of it I do not understand. I do not substitute "god did it" for "I don't know."
                            has nothing to do with awe or what I know. I just think that such complexity from the quantum level up to the cosmic, with everything working out so perfectly just points to a creator instead of an accident.

                            It's not an argument by any means. Just a personal observation.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              has nothing to do with awe or what I know. I just think that such complexity from the quantum level up to the cosmic, with everything working out so perfectly just points to a creator instead of an accident.
                              Or, using my "thought experiment," a source with quantum properties randomly producing independent singularities for eternity. Even if the process is entirely random (which I doubt it is), a universe with our kind of order is almost a certainty to eventually occur. After all - eternity is a long, long time.

                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              It's not an argument by any means. Just a personal observation.
                              Understood. This type of thinking often produces exactly that kind of result. People see the world from their perspective - and forget the power of numbers. A man buys a lottery ticket and is told they have 1 in 175 million. Then they win...defying all odds. Except that is the odds of a specific person winning. The odds of SOMEONE winning are much better. Indeed, if 175 million lottery tickets are sold, the odds are very high.

                              The same applies here. We are living on the "winning ticket" so it just seems so amazing and unbelievable such a thing could happen. But what if this is only one of an infinte number of universes over an inifinite timeline? Now the odds that such a universe would exist are not so fantastical. Indeed, it's almost predictable. After all - infinity is a long long time..
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Or, using my "thought experiment," a source with quantum properties randomly producing independent singularities for eternity. Even if the process is entirely random (which I doubt it is), a universe with our kind of order is almost a certainty to eventually occur. After all - eternity is a long, long time.
                                Or you could look at this way, there would be an infinite number of possible universes why ever hit on one that was not only life supporting but life creating? You still are left with an infinite number of past events though.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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