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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    If I say "changes in the elevation of the ocean are no different than changes in elevation of the puddle in my backyard; they're both water," I am likewise making a "true statement." Both are water, both can experience elevation changes. In the process, I am ignoring and minimizing the impacts of the changes in ocean level versus the impacts of the changes in puddle level. That is essentially the tactic you are using. It provides no value to your argument.
    Don't you see what you are doing Carp? You are subjectively deciding which is more important, which you value more. And if another man sees your choice as trivial - so what? Where do you go? Talk about having no argument.


    Nothing has inherent worth, so comparing the "inherent worth" of a human and the "inherent worth" of a housefly is the equivalent of comparing the "ephemeral essence" of a human versus the "ephemeral essence" of a housefly. The terms are essentially meaningless. Worth/value are measured by a valuer. So a human has more "worth" or "value" to me than a housefly because of their respective relationships to my life. Nature or the universe doesn't have "inherent worth." To the universe, a housefly, a rock, or a human are equivalent - just different organizations of matter. Humans infer worth based on what we value. Most humans value other humans above rocks and houseflies. It is only human arrogance that thinks somehow this value is "inherent" to humanity itself. That is probably why we place "things that benefit us" over and above any concern about any other life or the planet itself.
    Right, what is the saying? A rat is a pig, a pig is a dog, and a dog is a boy... Like I said, in your world our choices are as trivial as we are...
    Last edited by seer; 04-20-2018, 07:12 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Don't you see what you are doing Carp? You are subjectively deciding which is more important, which you value more.
      Yes, I am. Everyone does. And the vast majority of us recognize the tactic you are using, because we value the same way.

      Originally posted by seer View Post
      And if another man sees your choice as trivial - so what? Where do you go? Talk about having no argument.
      My argument is from a relative/subjective framework, which I have shown to exist - even for you. So I'm not sure why you would be surprised by that.

      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Right, what is the saying? A rat is a pig, a pig is a dog, and a dog is a boy... Like I said, in your world our choices are as trivial as we are...
      They are "objectively" trivial. They are not subjectively trivial. You are back to Technique #1, which has already been shown to be a meaningless tautology.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Nonsense. Do we have more out of wedlock births today than we did in the bad old 50s and 60s? More abortions? Did we have more unwanted pregnancies back then? More gay suicides back then?
        What we had in the bad old 50s and 60s were "shameful" unwanted pregnancies, that often resulted in dangerous backyard abortions, and homosexuals being forced to remain in the closet by the judgemental opinions of the likes of you, along with higher suicides as a rejected segment of society.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          What we had in the bad old 50s and 60s were "shameful" unwanted pregnancies, that often resulted in dangerous backyard abortions, and homosexuals being forced to remain in the closet by the judgemental opinions of the likes of you, along with higher suicides as a rejected segment of society.
          That is not what I asked: Do we have more out of wedlock births today than we did in the bad old 50s and 60s? More abortions? Did we have more unwanted pregnancies back then? More gay suicides back then?

          Do you have the numbers or are you just talking out your butt again?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Yes, I am. Everyone does. And the vast majority of us recognize the tactic you are using, because we value the same way.
            You are not making sense. I can call your choices trivial, that is fine, but I can't compare your moral choices to something like food choices. Somehow that is a tactic. So I see that as bringing clarity to the triviality of all our choices you see it as mere debate tactic. If we really live in your subjective world Carp why would your opinion on this be more correct, true, or right than mine?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              You are not making sense.
              Apparently not to you. That may have something to do with your inability to frame an argument.

              Originally posted by seer View Post
              I can call your choices trivial, that is fine, but I can't compare your moral choices to something like food choices.
              I said nothing about "can't." You can do as you wish. I merely pointed out your tactic, and how it fits into the rest of your lack of argument.

              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Somehow that is a tactic.
              They both are.

              Originally posted by seer View Post
              So I see that as bringing clarity to the triviality of all our choices you see it as mere debate tactic.
              No one's values are trivial to the valuer. They may appear trivial to someone valuing differently.

              Originally posted by seer View Post
              If we really live in your subjective world Carp why would your opinion on this be more correct, true, or right than mine?
              Since they are subjective, if you find my choices more correct/true/right than yours, you will adopt mine and make them yours. Then you will see them as correct/true/right.

              Of course they are NOT more correct by some objective measure, since they are subjective. But that means your back to Technique #1 (yet again).
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                They both are.

                No one's values are trivial to the valuer. They may appear trivial to someone valuing differently.
                And in your subjective world if I see your moral choices as trivial as your food choices how am I wrong? How is that a mere debate tactic if I believe it is true in subjectivism?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  And in your subjective world if I see your moral choices as trivial as your food choices how am I wrong? How is that a mere debate tactic if I believe it is true in subjectivism?
                  Seer, I have to admit I'm a bit tired. I've responded to this question, and it's variants, multiple times now. You either are not understanding the responses, or you aren't agreeing with them. I'm under no illusion you're going to suddenly say, "ahhh... now I understand! You're right, Michel, morality is relative/subjective." It would require a significant up-ending of your worldview, and I doubt that is going to happen.

                  For myself, I am content with my worldview, and I find subjective/relative morality to be perfectly functional, and an apt description for how moralizing has worked for humanity from the beginning of recorded history, though I do recognize that the vast majority of people do still cling to the notion of an absolute/objective moral code. Unfortunately, the position suffers from two major failures: 1) this moral code cannot be shown to exist and be objectively accessible, and 2) those with the worldview have no coherent argument against moral relativism/subjectivism, except the three techniques noted. For those reasons, I am not a subscriber to that worldview.

                  You are certainly free to claim to be. That is up to you.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Seer, I have to admit I'm a bit tired. I've responded to this question, and it's variants, multiple times now. You either are not understanding the responses, or you aren't agreeing with them. I'm under no illusion you're going to suddenly say, "ahhh... now I understand! You're right, Michel, morality is relative/subjective." It would require a significant up-ending of your worldview, and I doubt that is going to happen.
                    That is not the point Carp, you were questioning my motives, telling me what I was thinking on the subject. When I actually do believe that your moral choices are as trivial as food choices in subjectivism, because by nature we human beings are trivial. Like I said, akin to the ant pontificating right before I step on him.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      That is not the point Carp, you were questioning my motives, telling me what I was thinking on the subject. When I actually do believe that your moral choices are as trivial as food choices in subjectivism, because by nature we human beings are trivial. Like I said, akin to the ant pontificating right before I step on him.
                      I have no idea what your motives are, Seer. I am merely pointing out that your three techniques are common to most absolutists/objectivists and are not valid arguments. They’re merely debate tactics. And I think you’ve mentioned the stepped on bugs a half dozen times now. It’s still not an argument.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        No, it is for teenagers too, as the flyer states.
                        The back of the flyer lists people who should attend. Teenagers are not included. What led you to believe the talk was for teenagers?

                        I don't care what you think. And you again used the democratic process above to support your position. But when 72% of parents think they should be able to opt out you disregard their views. And BTW - neither you or government schools love those kids or know them better than the parents. This why people like you are wicked, control freaks.
                        I'm not using the democratic process to support my opinion, I'm saying you (Seer) can't simultaneously be for it (my opinion counts, I'm a voter) and against it (my preference is more important than what people want). I am not in favor of the democratic process when it comes to this topic. Whether any given parent "knows their kid" or loves them is irrelevant. There have been parents who knew their kid and loved them who resorted to faith healing or new age remedies and they ended up with dead kids. Medical care shouldn't be reliant on how parents feel. It should be reliant on informed consent/assent and best practices. How wicked, not wanting people to get AIDS. What control freaks, putting the needs of children above the Puritan hang-ups of their parents.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          That is not what I asked: Do we have more out of wedlock births today than we did in the bad old 50s and 60s? More abortions? Did we have more unwanted pregnancies back then? More gay suicides back then?

                          Do you have the numbers or are you just talking out your butt again?
                          What you "asked" is irrelevant. The mental health of the affected people is the main concern. Bullying and social rejection of LGBT youth has been shown to be a major contributing factor in many suicides. This can only improve with the acceptance of such people as opposed to their rejection. As for backyard abortions, they are transparently dangerous and demeaning. And yet you want to return to "the bad old 50s and 60s" where these things occur for the sake of your personal religious beliefs, regardless of the suffering your "righteousness" brings about.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            What you "asked" is irrelevant. The mental health of the affected people is the main concern. Bullying and social rejection of LGBT youth has been shown to be a major contributing factor in many suicides. This can only improve with the acceptance of such people as opposed to their rejection. As for backyard abortions, they are transparently dangerous and demeaning. And yet you want to return to "the bad old 50s and 60s" where these things occur for the sake of your personal religious beliefs, regardless of the suffering your "righteousness" brings about.
                            I also do not have the statistics, and I suspect they are not available or possible. When abortion is illegal, it goes underground and reporting doesn't happen. So we have no basis for saying abortions increased or decreased (per capita) from the 1950s and 1960s. This is a "reporting error" problem. The same is true of suicide rates due to homosexuality and social rejection. The number of gay men or women who were strong enough to "come out" and say, "I don't care what you think" were few in that time, and tended to be flamboyant as all heck, painting a skewed picture of what it meant to be gay.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              I have no idea what your motives are, Seer. I am merely pointing out that your three techniques are common to most absolutists/objectivists and are not valid arguments. They’re merely debate tactics. And I think you’ve mentioned the stepped on bugs a half dozen times now. It’s still not an argument.
                              That is your opinion, and you are questioning my motives. That I'm only using these facts (facts if subjectivism is true) to clearly define moral relativism.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                What you "asked" is irrelevant. The mental health of the affected people is the main concern. Bullying and social rejection of LGBT youth has been shown to be a major contributing factor in many suicides. This can only improve with the acceptance of such people as opposed to their rejection. As for backyard abortions, they are transparently dangerous and demeaning. And yet you want to return to "the bad old 50s and 60s" where these things occur for the sake of your personal religious beliefs, regardless of the suffering your "righteousness" brings about.
                                I'm sorry Tass, your opinion on these matters have no importance. I suppose that thieves, adulterers, prostitutes, rapists, drug dealers, gang bangers etc...have higher suicides because society is not accepting of those behaviors. And it is not just my personal religious belief, it is what the majority of this country believe within my lifetime.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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