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Is self defense a God given right? In what way?

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  • Is self defense a God given right? In what way?

    I am friends on Facebook with a fairly well known pro-life advocate. He opened up a discussion about people who ask pro-lifers whether they would give up their right to bear arms in exchange for a ban on abortion. He said this isn't a fair question because both life and self defense are rights, and that part of the right of self defense also involves the right to fight back against a tyrannical government.

    I challenged him on the self defense part. I pointed out that if self defense was a right, then guns are just one way of achieving that right, and using his logic, you could argue that universal healthcare is a right because it's one way to preserve the right to life. I also said I don't think self defense is a right in the first place, because Jesus spoke of turning the other cheek, and that when Jesus talked about walking two miles when forced to walk one by a soldier, that doesn't seem to leave much room for the Christian fighting back against their government.

    He didn't respond to me but plenty of his friends seem to agree that self defense and gun rights are a God-given right. I want to see chapter and verse for this claim.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    You obviously won't find anything about gun rights in Scripture.

    But Jesus did tell his disciples to buy a sword for protection. Luke 22:36

    Exodus 22
    2 If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account.
    This is only valid if the theft is occurring in the night.

    Luke 11

    21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe;
    Nehemiah 4

    17 who were building on the wall. Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. 18 And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me.
    As has been discussed before on these boards, there are mixed opinions about this, and I believe it is a matter of one's own conscience as to defending oneself or one's family from harm.

    As for me, I would do everything in my power to prevent anyone from hurting any member of my family.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think there's a decent argument that the sword buying was intended to precipitate Jesus's arrest so that Scripture could be fulfilled and not actually to be used in defense (after all, the one disciple who actually used his got rebuked).

      I think the fact that it's so debatable means that we shouldn't be putting it as a basic human right alongside life.
      Last edited by KingsGambit; 04-08-2018, 06:17 PM.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        I think there's a decent argument that the sword buying was intended to precipitate Jesus's arrest so that Scripture could be fulfilled and not actually to be used in defense (after all, the one disciple who actually used his got rebuked).

        I think the fact that it's so debatable means that we shouldn't be putting it as a basic human right alongside life.
        I don't agree with your read of Luke 22:36. Jesus knew that after he was arrested and put to death and resurrected and taken up into heaven that great persecution would come on his followers. They were going to be scattered, and needed to be able to protect themselves if the need arose.

        The 2 swords that the disciples had in the garden, one of which Peter used to sever Malchus' ear were already in their possession. Jesus was telling them to buy more swords for the persecution and scattering to come. There was no time between the final Passover and the trip to the garden for any of them to buy weapons. This directive was for later.

        I don't know if you can use these passages to make a case for self-defense being a human right, like life, but I also think that if some believers think that they can in good conscience carry a legal weapon, then that is between them and God as per Romans 14.

        I don't carry a weapon, mostly cuz I live in Canada, but I would have no hesitation in grabbing the nearest baseball bat or butcher knife if someone broke into my house and tried to hurt my family.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #5
          The slap on the cheek and legal orders are minor insults that don't deserve retribution. It would be proving the insulter right to attack him for a minor insult.
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • #6
            If you break into a strings man's house and do not tie him you will not be able to steal from the strong man. Jesus said something like this in one of his parables.

            As for healthcare you do not have a right to another person's labor or property or skills.
            sigpic

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            • #7
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              I am friends on Facebook with a fairly well known pro-life advocate. He opened up a discussion about people who ask pro-lifers whether they would give up their right to bear arms in exchange for a ban on abortion. He said this isn't a fair question because both life and self defense are rights, and that part of the right of self defense also involves the right to fight back against a tyrannical government.

              I challenged him on the self defense part. I pointed out that if self defense was a right, then guns are just one way of achieving that right, and using his logic, you could argue that universal healthcare is a right because it's one way to preserve the right to life. I also said I don't think self defense is a right in the first place, because Jesus spoke of turning the other cheek, and that when Jesus talked about walking two miles when forced to walk one by a soldier, that doesn't seem to leave much room for the Christian fighting back against their government.

              He didn't respond to me but plenty of his friends seem to agree that self defense and gun rights are a God-given right. I want to see chapter and verse for this claim.
              I am "Pro-Life," and never vote for a candidate that does not at least pretend to support Pro-Life (i.e. anti-abortion) legislation. But I'm not aware of any "chapter and verse" that explicitly proscribes abortion.

              Unfortunately, I think the "God-given" aspect is a bit fuzzy in each of the two cases.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                I think there's a decent argument that the sword buying was intended to precipitate Jesus's arrest so that Scripture could be fulfilled and not actually to be used in defense (after all, the one disciple who actually used his got rebuked).

                I think the fact that it's so debatable means that we shouldn't be putting it as a basic human right alongside life.
                Then what about all those wars God had the Israelites fight against those who attacked them?

                You are basically saying Jesus set up his disciples by asking them to carry swords to get him arrested. That doesn't make much sense. It makes Jesus into a manipulator and dishonest, and there is nothing actually WRONG with carrying a sword for protection so it would not have gotten him in to trouble for telling them to carry swords.

                He told Peter to stop because at THAT time, he did want to be arrested (in the garden)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Then what about all those wars God had the Israelites fight against those who attacked them?

                  You are basically saying Jesus set up his disciples by asking them to carry swords to get him arrested. That doesn't make much sense. It makes Jesus into a manipulator and dishonest, and there is nothing actually WRONG with carrying a sword for protection so it would not have gotten him in to trouble for telling them to carry swords.

                  He told Peter to stop because at THAT time, he did want to be arrested (in the garden)
                  Since He sometimes went so far as to actually order genocide, I'm not sure how far we can extrapolate from His dealings with national Israel to His dealings with the Church.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As Christians I think it's pretty clear that all human life is precious to God, so much so that God ordained a harsh penalty for any unlawful killing. If we look at God's first words to Noah after the Flood, we see Him declare the importance of human life and the price paid for unlawfully spilling human blood:
                    Scripture Verse: Gen 9:6

                    “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image

                    © Copyright Original Source


                    God didn't say this statement to a nation or to a police force...no, he said it to a small band of people who are rebuilding human society from the ground up. While obviously not specifically addressing self-defense, I think this establishes just how much God expects us to protect life in the real world.

                    The Mosaic law demanded the death penalty for unlawful killing, blasphemy, and a few others...but, in Exodus 22:2, God makes it clear that defending one's home even with deadly force is justified.
                    Scripture Verse: Exodus 22:2

                    If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him,

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Also, I think there are more biblical "mandates" as we see when Nehemiah was building the wall around Jerusalem was faced with hostile neighbors bent on stopping the walls from being built. This wasn't war, it was raids from hostile tribes surrounding them.
                    Scripture Verse: Nehemiah 4:14

                    And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    We see a a despot King persuaded into allowing the Jews to defend themselves with deadly force in Esther (Esther 8:11 and 9:5)

                    I believe the New Testament completely removes the idea that we Christians can ever take revenge on anyone. It's never justified...but, I think the idea that one is required to surrender his life, or especially the lives of his family, neighbors, or even strangers, in the face of armed attack is alien to scripture. I can't think of any biblical precedent for the idea that we are called to surrender the lives of others (such as our spouse, children, or neighbors) in response to deadly attack.

                    While not ​necessarily biblical, I do think that the right of self-defense is ingrained into the moral fabric of Western Christian Tradition. John Locke said in his Second Treatise of Civil Government that the right of self defense is a “fundamental law of nature”:
                    Sec. 16. THE state of war is a state of enmity and destruction: and therefore declaring by word or action, not a passionate and hasty, but a sedate settled design upon another man’s life, puts him in a state of war with him against whom he has declared such an intention, and so has exposed his life to the other’s power to be taken away by him, or any one that joins with him in his defence, and espouses his quarrel; it being reasonable and just, I should have a right to destroy that which threatens me with destruction: for, by the fundamental law of nature, man being to be preserved as much as possible, when all cannot be preserved, the safety of the innocent is to be preferred: and one may destroy a man who makes war upon him, or has discovered an enmity to his being, for the same reason that he may kill a wolf or a lion; because such men are not under the ties of the commonlaw of reason, have no other rule, but that of force and violence, and so may be treated as beasts of prey, those dangerous and noxious creatures, that will be sure to destroy him whenever he falls into their power [emphasis added by me].
                    Last edited by Littlejoe; 04-11-2018, 06:30 PM.
                    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      I also said I don't think self defense is a right in the first place, because Jesus spoke of turning the other cheek, and that when Jesus talked about walking two miles when forced to walk one by a soldier, that doesn't seem to leave much room for the Christian fighting back against their government.
                      What Jesus talked about is not about danger of actual harm to you.
                      Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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