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TPP - And Trump Idiocy

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  • #61
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    IOW, more fake news. Par for the course I'm afraid.

    The more the left keeps concocting stories like these the more likely the public will simply shrug off something that's real. It's like the boy-who-cried-wolf.
    Unfortunately, there are low-info liberals who will dutifully grab their pitchforks and rush out to the field every singe time, so the media is just going to keep crying, "Wolf!"
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      It is not clear to me that something I presented demonstrates "not X." Where, exactly, did that happen?
      ...
      So the original claim is X. You presented a source that demonstrated not-X yet insisted that this somehow lent credence to X. But being a post-modernist, such a blatant contradiction in logic probably doesn't even give you pause.
      Mmmm. I think you're using two different definitions of "Not-X".

      Defn 1: the negation of X - Trump said "[something]" vs "Turmp did not say "[something]".
      Defn 2: Something that isn't X - Trump said "[something]" vs Trump said "[some other thing]".
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Unfortunately, there are low-info liberals who will dutifully grab their pitchforks and rush out to the field every singe time, so the media is just going to keep crying, "Wolf!"
        The reason I knew that Trump never said that was because if he actually had, it would have been on every liberal news station and website 24 hours a day for at least a week.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Roy View Post
          Mmmm. I think you're using two different definitions of "Not-X".

          Defn 1: the negation of X - Trump said "[something]" vs "Turmp did not say "[something]".
          Defn 2: Something that isn't X - Trump said "[something]" vs Trump said "[some other thing]".
          Trump was accused of saying X. carpe presented a source showing that Trump did not say X.

          I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this one, Roy.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Trump was accused of saying X. carpe presented a source showing that Trump did not say X.
            Carpe presented a source showing that Trump said something other than X. That doesn't mean Trump didn't say X elsewhen.
            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Roy View Post
              Carpe presented a source showing that Trump said something other than X. That doesn't mean Trump didn't say X elsewhen.
              His point was that the source did not support Trump saying X but it was used as "evidence" that Trump said X.

              Trump might have said X, but so far there is no actual evidence he did, despite Carpe's kabuki dancing.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                Carpe presented a source showing that Trump said something other than X. That doesn't mean Trump didn't say X elsewhen.
                Argument from silence.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  His point was that the source did not support Trump saying X but it was used as "evidence" that Trump said X.

                  Trump might have said X, but so far there is no actual evidence he did, despite Carpe's kabuki dancing.
                  I don't disagree.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Argument from silence.
                    Blither.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Read what I said. I said you have been on MY case about me mind reading YOU. Claiming you meant something when you say you did not. You don't seem to like me doing that.
                      Actually, it is not correct to say that I "don't like it." It doesn't bother me at a personal level. It just strikes me as a pointless way of engaging. At first I was falling into the trap of repeatedly trying to clarify what my post meant, but I eventually realized that was pointless. When someone has locked themselves into "you meant this - don't deny it," it's a waste of time to repeatedly try to convince them of what you actually meant. So now I clarify and try to keep it to once, then point out that some mind reading is going on and move on. At least, I try to. I still do occasionally still let myself get sucked into the exchange. But I'm working on it.


                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Yet when this reporter actually attributes an actual QUOTE to Trump, you rationalize the weakest of "evidence" to justify what he did as plausible.
                      So, first, we are not talking about something someone meant as opposed to something someone said; we are talking about what was actually said. Second, while everyone continues to be focused on Trump's comment (which IS the focus of the exchange between you and Starlight), my focus has been on two words in YOUR post: "no evidence." I simply pointed out that there IS actually evidence - it's just not very good evidence. It's circumstantial at best, and might even be called "hearsay" evidence. I never used the words "plausible" or "likely" or "proven." Indeed, I have said, several times, it is "inadequate" evidence. It's just not "no evidence." My point was that you were using a superlative - an absolute - in what I considered to be an unwarranted way.

                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      And the above is you just either being totally off base or trying to pretend you are in order to avoid confronting my point, and then you are doing your "I will give you the last word" so you can run away again. Fine. This is my last word. You are inconsistent when it comes to the matter of Trump and in this case where you have attempted to rationalize the reporter making up a bald-faced lie about Trump by claiming that there is "evidence" just not very good evidence.
                      (and that emoji is aimed at me, not you). It's three days after I wrote the post you are responding to. A significant amount has happened to me (personally) since then, and I am just sitting back down to pick up the threads of my discussions. I completely forgot I had said, "last word is yours."

                      Oh well, I wrote the response, might as well post it. Meanwhile, top o' the mornin' to ya.

                      I will get off now. The exchange is more funny than it is productive. It's like two people going to war over a pomegranate!
                      Last edited by carpedm9587; 04-17-2018, 07:44 AM.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Just because I'm bored, I'm going to connect the dots:

                        Dimbulb posted a source which purported to be a direct quote from Trump, saying, "Don't care if we kill civilians, totally fine to kill civilians, and we're done we're out of there now." (For those keeping score at home, this is X.)

                        When Sparko asked for a source to prove the quote, you immediately jumped in to defend Dimbulb saying, "Presumably, since part of this was apparently a Fox and Friends interview, there is footage."

                        After a couple more exchanges with Sparko, you finally pointed to a source which you claimed was evidence supporting the quote in question despite the glaringly obvious fact that the cited article explicitly quoted Trump as not saying it but saying something entirely different. (For those keeping score at home, this is not-X.)

                        You then absurdly claimed that even though your source quotes the President as explicitly not making the statement in question, that it somehow "lends credence" to the assertion that he did say it.

                        So the original claim is X. You presented a source that demonstrated not-X yet insisted that this somehow lent credence to X. But being a post-modernist, such a blatant contradiction in logic probably doesn't even give you pause.
                        OK, so with respect to the bolded portion, I really think you would benefit from a course in basic logic MM. The article does indeed quote a different statement. We'll call this "Statement Y" and the original statement "Statement X." So the linked article provides evidence that Trump said Statement Y. The article clearly affirms that Statement Y was spoken. It says nothing about Statement X. That could be because Statement X was never said, or it could be because they lacked space and chose Statement Y to report on instead, or it could be because someone thought Statement Y fit into the narrative of the article better. But it does not PROVE "Not X."

                        That being said, given the nature of Statement X and the nature of Statement Y, if I were a reporter, I would jump on the claimed Statement X rather than Statement Y, so I DO think that its absence in this article is evidence that Statement X was never said.

                        The entire focus of my posts on this has been to hold "evidence" and "proven" to their proper place. When we do not believe or do not like the evidence, or when the evidence fails to prove a case, that does not make it "not evidence." It makes it inadequate evidence. Anything that provides some insight as to whether something did or did not occur is "evidence." When the defense (or prosecution) fails to make their case, that does not mean there was "no evidence," it means the evidence failed to convince and/or was overshadowed by evidence for the other side. And "proven" is too often used for things that are merely speculation and guesswork. Claiming it is NOT speculation and guesswork doesn't make it so.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Carpe, Please delete your last post to me since you said I could have the last word.

                          This idiotic tactic of yours needs to stop. You can't deal with the debate so you pretend to run away while taking the high ground and giving your opponent the last word. Yet you never can follow through. It's pretty sad.

                          Along with your propensity to never admit that you are wrong and trying every way imaginable to rationalize yourself and wiggle out of any commitment to a position.
                          Last edited by Sparko; 04-17-2018, 08:15 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Along with your propensity to never admit that you are wrong and trying every way imaginable to rationalize yourself and wiggle out of any commitment to a position.
                            He's a classic post-modernist, so I suspect he considers this sort of thinking to be reasonable and rational. If he can define himself out of error then that's what he'll do even if he has to mangle the English language to do it, because in his mind, words can mean whatever you want them to mean at any given moment.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              He's a classic post-modernist, so I suspect he considers this sort of thinking to be reasonable and rational. If he can define himself out of error then that's what he'll do even if he has to mangle the English language to do it, because in his mind, words can mean whatever you want them to mean at any given moment.
                              I just have zero respect for people who can't own their own statements and positions and have to keep obfuscating what they mean.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Carpe, Please delete your last post to me since you said I could have the last word.
                                Nah. That would deprive you of a chance to pick on me.

                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                This idiotic tactic of yours needs to stop. You can't deal with the debate so you pretend to run away while taking the high ground and giving your opponent the last word. Yet you never can follow through. It's pretty sad.
                                Actually - I have followed through several times. But you are right that I am not perfect at it.

                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Along with your propensity to never admit that you are wrong and trying every way imaginable to rationalize yourself and wiggle out of any commitment to a position.
                                Your perspective is duly noted. Since I have acknowledged error on several instances, you're wrong...
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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