Originally posted by Teallaura
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Do you defend Trump's infidelity?
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"Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.
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I do not have any particular problem with infidelity as such, because it is far to common among politicians, and the public in general. The problem I have is tRump's life style and methods of rule is more like Caligula than any other president in history.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostCould you elaborate on your scriptural argument?
For one thing, I'm curious what you mean by "support", because supporting and defending Trump's political policy does mean that one supports or even approves of his unrelated moral failings. What about Christians who supported Hillary in the last election? Would you assert that they, too, are in danger of being judged?
Because just based on what you've written here, it would be almost impossible for Christians to support any politician without being judged in one way or another, and that doesn't seem correct to me.
fwiw,
guacamole"Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
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Originally posted by guacamole View Post...
Christian support of non-Christian politicians is fraught with spiritual peril, imo. I'm not sure if this is a surprise to anyone, given my previously stated opinions.
fwiw,
guacamoleGeislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostI'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean scriptural condemnation of the powerful who use that position to abuse the weak--in this case sexual exploitation? Or you do mean scriptural condemnation of so-called spiritual leadership who don't confront that sin?
Different issue. I think Christians are wrong to support Trump, but the vast majority of Christians do not have the same responsibility that leadership does, at least according to scripture. I think Christians are wrong to support Hillary too, given the abuses that have swirled around her and her husband.
Christian support of non-Christian politicians is fraught with spiritual peril, imo. I'm not sure if this is a surprise to anyone, given my previously stated opinions.
fwiw,
guacamoleSome may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAgain, what do you mean by "support"? Is it possible to condone one action or belief while condemning another? Or does your political philosophy only allow for all-or-nothing? And if the latter is the case, considering that we all have sin in our lives, how is it possible for a Christian to support anybody for anything without coming under judgment?
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostSo presumably you would have Christians ignore, if not actively denounce, people like Mitt Romney and John Huntsman."Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAgain, what do you mean by "support"?
Is it possible to condone one action or belief while condemning another?
Or does your political philosophy only allow for all-or-nothing?
And if the latter is the case, considering that we all have sin in our lives, how is it possible for a Christian to support anybody for anything without coming under judgment?
fwiw,
guacamole"Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostDifferent issue. I think Christians are wrong to support Trump, but the vast majority of Christians do not have the same responsibility that leadership does, at least according to scripture. I think Christians are wrong to support Hillary too, given the abuses that have swirled around her and her husband.
Originally posted by guacamole View PostYes. I had a serious issue with the Grahams when they amended some of the messaging on their website after meeting with Mitt Romney in 2012. Close association between non-Christian politicians like Romney and Trump one the one hand and so-called Christian leaders on the other side is corrosive to the Gospel.Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostYes. I had a serious issue with the Grahams when they amended some of the messaging on their website after meeting with Mitt Romney in 2012. Close association between non-Christian politicians like Romney and Trump one the one hand and so-called Christian leaders on the other side is corrosive to the Gospel.
Nonetheless, I am not convicted to live things out in the same fashion as you. I accept the reality that ours is not and never has been a "Christian" nation, and I can't expect to only vote for Christians, and "proper" ones at that. If I had convictions anywhere close to that, I would have to join the ranks of those believers whose consciences do not permit them to participate in the political process at all.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostThat's really straightforward. I specified what I meant with the respect of Christian leadership supporting Trump.
Yup.
It's not a political philosophy. My political life is my Christian life. They do not exist in separate boxes.
I don't follow you. Are you asserting we Christians don't have to use discernment? Paul could have been a political supporter of Nero? John the Baptist of Herod--so long as their positions on social issues lined up correctly? Can we support anybody without regard to their character then?
fwiw,
guacamoleLast edited by Tassman; 04-22-2018, 03:02 AM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostThat's really straightforward. I specified what I meant with the respect of Christian leadership supporting Trump.
Yup.
It's not a political philosophy. My political life is my Christian life. They do not exist in separate boxes.
I don't follow you. Are you asserting we Christians don't have to use discernment? Paul could have been a political supporter of Nero? John the Baptist of Herod--so long as their positions on social issues lined up correctly? Can we support anybody without regard to their character then?
fwiw,
guacamole
For me, I don't look for a perfect candidate; rather, I vote for the person who I think will do the most good in office. What else should I do?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Can't we differentiate between Christians supporting non-Christian politicians like Trump (and, yes, Trump automatically qualifies as a non-Christian because he said that he never asked God for forgiveness, unless something has changed since then) and Romney personally and supporting them within the capacity of Christian ministry? If you think they're the best candidate, fine. If you wrap it up with Christian values and act like any attack on the candidate is an attack on the gospel itself (like Jerry Falwell Jr. seems to do), it's a problem."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostExcept for the fact that you deny and defend his corrupt m0ral nature at every turn, including his penchant for lying about nearly everything, including his infidelity
As for Trump's admitted infidelity, no, I don't condone it, but neither am I going to pretend that it somehow makes him unfit to be President. Heck, Jackie Kennedy was one of the most cheated on First Ladies in US history, but liberals treat JFK like he's a hero, even going so far as to excuse his serial adultery.Last edited by Mountain Man; 04-22-2018, 05:49 PM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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