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  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    It is - most people tend to think of their employer as the guy signing the check - not the customer paying for the service. Now, strictly speaking, it's not analogous - but it's an easy assumption for an individual to make that if they are government employees they are employed by the government without making the logical extension to the tax payer.

    Speaking as a former government employee, it's also fairly common as a mindset. doesn't mean they don't care about the taxpayers necessarily - just that the taxpayer is not high on the 'list of people I am employed by'.
    I took his original comment to refer to those elected to political office, rather than career government employees. I can see how the latter would slip into the mindset you describe. It's not clear to me that this is true of "most politicians." From local to federal, there are a lot of elected, political types. I know there is a lot of big money in politics, so it is possible most are more beholden to big money than the electorate. I just have never seen any data to support that POV. Hence my question.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      I took his original comment to refer to those elected to political office, rather than career government employees. I can see how the latter would slip into the mindset you describe. It's not clear to me that this is true of "most politicians." From local to federal, there are a lot of elected, political types. I know there is a lot of big money in politics, so it is possible most are more beholden to big money than the electorate. I just have never seen any data to support that POV. Hence my question.
      Though technically correct, politicians and elected officials are not referred to as 'government employees'. That term refers to those hired to work for government (under merit systems) and lower appointees (rare in the modern times). Elected officials and appointees are not termed 'employees'.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        Though technically correct, politicians and elected officials are not referred to as 'government employees'. That term refers to those hired to work for government (under merit systems) and lower appointees (rare in the modern times). Elected officials and appointees are not termed 'employees'.
        I may be mistaken, but the comment I was responding to to was about politicians, not government employees. CP said, "Unfortunately, most politicians don't see themselves that way," and I responded, "I wonder if that is a defensible position?" You seem to have taken it in a direction I did not intend.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          I may be mistaken, but the comment I was responding to to was about politicians, not government employees. CP said, "Unfortunately, most politicians don't see themselves that way," and I responded, "I wonder if that is a defensible position?" You seem to have taken it in a direction I did not intend.
          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post538902

          Eh, yes and no - he was responding to Norrin who had used employees - but yeah, he did say politicians, not employees, so I retract the objection.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

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          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post538902

            Eh, yes and no - he was responding to Norrin who had used employees - but yeah, he did say politicians, not employees, so I retract the objection.
            I can see where that use of "employees" might have been confusing. I was focused on the "elected" part of the statement so didn't think of an alternative interpretation.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              It doesn't look like that at all, really. Even allowing for the kook factor, the party is pulling strongly to the left of that definition.
              In what way? The Libertarian Party (mostly) takes liberal positions on social issues and conservative positions on economic issues. If anything one can make a decent argument they're more right- than left-wing because their liberal positions are fairly in line with the Democrats whereas their conservative positions are, on average, more right-wing than Republicans.

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              • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                In what way? The Libertarian Party (mostly) takes liberal positions on social issues and conservative positions on economic issues. If anything one can make a decent argument they're more right- than left-wing because their liberal positions are fairly in line with the Democrats whereas their conservative positions are, on average, more right-wing than Republicans.
                10-15 years ago, when some libertarians launched the Free State Project to attempt to mass migrate to one state, they put their criteria for state selection online. One of the positive criteria for states was that it voted Republican. That seems evidence that libertarians seem to view themselves as closer to Republicans than Democrats. I'd agree with this, especially given how many Republicans are wishy-washy on social issues (and the converse for Democrats on fiscal issues is rather less true these days).
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                • I wouldn't say libertarians are that liberal on social issues. Their beliefs with regards to the social safety net for example have a direct negative impact on people's lives. I see them lumped in a lot with conservatives (conservolibertarian being the general name of the group).

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                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    I can see where that use of "employees" might have been confusing. I was focused on the "elected" part of the statement so didn't think of an alternative interpretation.
                    Nah, I read it wrong - apologies.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

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                    • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                      In what way? The Libertarian Party (mostly) takes liberal positions on social issues and conservative positions on economic issues. If anything one can make a decent argument they're more right- than left-wing because their liberal positions are fairly in line with the Democrats whereas their conservative positions are, on average, more right-wing than Republicans.
                      Gah, I remember now the one thing I hated about Poli Sci - having to define terms every bleeding time you sat down to talk.

                      You're right in AP - don't ask me why, it's really kinda weird for me, but I'm looking at them more IP. Why that matters is in America we're so danged centrist (Carpe, you're not allowed to define centrist - at all. ACK! I saw that - get those fingers off the keyboard!) that 'leftist' has little meaning unless you're looking straight at a group - and that will be a really small faction anyway. But in IP, especially Europe and Asia, fascism isn't just a 'well, we put it on the graph 'cause we thought we should' - it's actually a present force.

                      Libertarians, in their internal politics, strike me as very much in the leftist European vein. That (internal strife) will often translate to a policy shift as well, which I think I see some evidence of and which appears to me to be veering very much to the left.

                      All of which matters hardly at all - if I'm right, they will shoot themselves in the foot so badly as to lose what little gain they had made. If I'm wrong, it doesn't matter at all.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

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                      • Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                        I wouldn't say libertarians are that liberal on social issues. Their beliefs with regards to the social safety net for example have a direct negative impact on people's lives. I see them lumped in a lot with conservatives (conservolibertarian being the general name of the group).
                        Liberal and conservative are defined by the political system they are in (and whatever conversation you are having - grumble). From the American POV, yeah, they are awfully liberal socially - a little to the right of anarchists. To the European POV, they are highly conservative, slightly to the left of totalitarianism (okay, that might be an exaggeration... Well, a bit, anyway).
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          Liberal and conservative are defined by the political system they are in (and whatever conversation you are having - grumble). From the American POV, yeah, they are awfully liberal socially - a little to the right of anarchists. To the European POV, they are highly conservative, slightly to the left of totalitarianism (okay, that might be an exaggeration... Well, a bit, anyway).
                          Colour me interested. What views do they tend to hold which would be considered socially liberal?

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                          • Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                            Colour me interested. What views do they tend to hold which would be considered socially liberal?
                            Again, from the American POV: pro-gay marriage, pro-legalization (of drugs) and - drat, forgot the third one. Anyway, that's just off the top of my head. Libertarians (party) tend to be 'if it doesn't directly infringe another's rights, it should be permissible' - which results in fairly liberal social agenda. They are split on abortion at present but are traditionally pro-choice (modern technology kinda killed the 'clump of cells' crap and they are wrestling with 'human or not' at present).

                            Basically, they will permit most anything but don't wanna pay for it.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              Again, from the American POV: pro-gay marriage, pro-legalization (of drugs) and - drat, forgot the third one. Anyway, that's just off the top of my head. Libertarians (party) tend to be 'if it doesn't directly infringe another's rights, it should be permissible' - which results in fairly liberal social agenda. They are split on abortion at present but are traditionally pro-choice (modern technology kinda killed the 'clump of cells' crap and they are wrestling with 'human or not' at present).
                              Re gay marriage, it's better than when people had to hide away or killed themselves because nobody understood who they were. Legalisation of drugs, with intensive education programs (as per the dangers of tobacco) is preferable to prohibition, which results in massive crime. And the majority in the USA support pro-choice as well they should.

                              Basically, they will permit most anything but don't wanna pay for it.:
                              How does any of the above cost tax money?
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                Again, from the American POV: pro-gay marriage, pro-legalization (of drugs) and - drat, forgot the third one. Anyway, that's just off the top of my head. Libertarians (party) tend to be 'if it doesn't directly infringe another's rights, it should be permissible' - which results in fairly liberal social agenda. They are split on abortion at present but are traditionally pro-choice (modern technology kinda killed the 'clump of cells' crap and they are wrestling with 'human or not' at present).

                                Basically, they will permit most anything but don't wanna pay for it.
                                They're also in favor of more open borders and a reduction in military intervention and spending.

                                I don't know if the Libertarian Party in general is "pro gay marriage." I know a good number of members are, but another popular position in the party is that the government be removed from the marriage issue entirely, a position also adopted by some conservatives. Neither is explicitly outlined in the platform, though, so I don't really know which one is more popular in the party itself (probably "pro-gay marriage" if only because that's probably an easier sell to the general population).

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