Nobody Dies for a Lie

[Cow Poke]

Apparently the Apostles were blessed even though they didn't believe without seeing. God has double standards i guess!



Yes, even though the disciples who lived with him did not believe. You're good with that?

I think you're demonstrating, yet again, that you are often incapable of complex thought. There are degrees and stages of belief, just like there are different meanings of the word "judge". You also have a terrible inability to read and understand scripture.

With the disciples, "belief" was a process, solidified with the Resurrection of Christ, which is the vital foundation of our faith.

I'm good with that.

[JimL]

I think you're demonstrating, yet again, that you are often incapable of complex thought.

You must be looking in the mirror, CP. The point is obviously going right over your head. The Disciples (who lived with and followed Jesus) did not believe without seeing. Try to hold that simple notion in your head for a moment without confusing yourself with spin. If you or I don't believe without seeing, we supposedly go to hell because unless we believe you can't be saved, right. You don't see the double standard there?

There are degrees and stages of belief, just like there are different meanings of the word "judge". You also have a terrible inability to read and understand scripture.

With the disciples, "belief" was a process, solidified with the Resurrection of Christ, which is the vital foundation of our faith.

I'm good with that.

I know you're good with that, CP, you're not a critical thinker, at least not when it comes to the Bible. Again, the point is, the disciples themselves did not believe without seeing. What's with the double standard?

[Cow Poke]

The Disciples (who lived with and followed Jesus) did not believe without seeing.

So? Jesus was BRAND NEW on the scene, and we didn't have nearly 2,000 years of history. We didn't have the New Testament. This was the BEGINNING of Christianity.

If you or I don't believe without seeing, we supposedly go to hell because unless we believe you can't be saved, right. You don't see the double standard there?

There is no double standard, except in your own mind. And that sentence doesn't even make sense.

I know you're good with that, CP, you're not a critical thinker, at least not when it comes to the Bible. Again, the point is, the disciples themselves did not believe without seeing. What's with the double standard?

You are doing a horrible job of making your case, because you simply don't have one. All you have is insults and accusations.

[JimL]

So? Jesus was BRAND NEW on the scene, and we didn't have nearly 2,000 years of history. We didn't have the New Testament. This was the BEGINNING of Christianity.

2000 years having passed doesn't mean we have 2000 more years of Jesus history. The disciples didn't need the New Testament, they testified to it, remember?

There is no double standard, except in your own mind. And that sentence doesn't even make sense.

That's a simple assertion which doesn't refute the fact of the obvious double standard I've pointed out. Disciples weren't required to believe without seeing, the rest of us are required to believe without seeing. That's an obvious double standard that any unbiased mind can see.

You are doing a horrible job of making your case, because you simply don't have one. All you have is insults and accusations.

Actually you're doing a terrible job of refuting my case, as a matter of fact you basically have nothing to say about it at all except for the usual "you're wrong, you don't understand, you can't comprehend etc etc." And CP, if you do not wish to be insulted, then don't insult.

[Cow Poke]

2000 years having passed doesn't mean we have 2000 more years of Jesus history.

Actually, we have 2000 years of additional believers testifying of what Jesus has done in their lives, along with (note the title of the thread) thousands and thousands of martyrs who, even in death, maintained their testimony.

The disciples didn't need the New Testament, they testified to it, remember?

The point is they didn't HAVE the NT - WE DO. At this point, I'm beginning to think you can't possibly be this ignorant, and are only trolling.

That's a simple assertion which doesn't refute the fact of the obvious double standard I've pointed out. Disciples weren't required to believe without seeing, the rest of us are required to believe without seeing. That's an obvious double standard that any unbiased mind can see.

Jim, I know this is a really hard concept for you to grasp, but Jesus was only on this earth for a very brief time about 2,000 years ago. None of us CAN see Him "in the flesh" like the disciples who walked and talked and ate with Him. Totally different circumstances.

[rogue06]

Apparently the Apostles were blessed even though they didn't believe without seeing. God has double standards i guess!

When something is so moronically stupid that a mere facepalm simply will not do

hai_huoc_5.gif

Since you're so clueless I figure I'd throw you a bone. One can be blessed for many different reasons.

[carpedm9587]

But, but, but, you said....

You seem to forget I'm a disingenuous, dishonest, duplicitous poster. Deal with it...

[JimL]

When something is so moronically stupid that a mere facepalm simply will not do

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27553[/ATTACH]

Since you're so clueless I figure I'd throw you a bone. One can be blessed for many different reasons.

The point I've been making rogue, which is apparently going right over your head as well, is that the disciples lacked faith, they, who lived and followed Jesus, didn't believe in his resurrection themselves until they seen him with their own eyes. Did you ever ask yourself why a god would require the rest of us to believe or be doomed when even his own disciples didn't believe? Like you, the very idea is idiotic.

[Cow Poke]

The point I've been making rogue, which is apparently going right over your head as well, is that the disciples lacked faith, they, who lived and followed Jesus, didn't believe in his resurrection themselves until they seen him with their own eyes. Did you ever ask yourself why a god would require the rest of us to believe or be doomed when even his own disciples didn't believe? Like you, the very idea is idiotic.

His disciples were Jews who were longing for the coming of Messiah. It took quite a journey for them to come to the place where they began to realize that Jesus was, indeed, Messiah. But, believe they did.

Jesus turned religion upside down, or right side up -- He took the Passover meal, which had been observed off and on for many years, with thousands and thousands of Passover lambs, and Jesus used the elements thereof to establish the new covenant - and Jesus became the Passover Lamb once and for all.

What you can't seem to understand is that this "new covenant" was a whole new concept - a whole new way of believing. But the disciples did believe, especially after seeing the resurrected Lord. As I have already pointed out, apparently, not ALL of His disciples believed, because John tells us that many of them followed Him no more.

Again, you can't seem to comprehend that "belief" isn't an on/off switch - it can come in stages. So powerful that Peter, who had cursed and swore and declared He didn't even know Jesus - He became one of the greatest preachers that ever lived.

Belief is a journey. Maybe that's why you're here.

[JimL]

His disciples were Jews who were longing for the coming of Messiah. It took quite a journey for them to come to the place where they began to realize that Jesus was, indeed, Messiah. But, believe they did.

Jesus turned religion upside down, or right side up -- He took the Passover meal, which had been observed off and on for many years, with thousands and thousands of Passover lambs, and Jesus used the elements thereof to establish the new covenant - and Jesus became the Passover Lamb once and for all.

What you can't seem to understand is that this "new covenant" was a whole new concept - a whole new way of believing. But the disciples did believe, especially after seeing the resurrected Lord. As I have already pointed out, apparently, not ALL of His disciples believed, because John tells us that many of them followed Him no more.

Again, you can't seem to comprehend that "belief" isn't an on/off switch - it can come in stages. So powerful that Peter, who had cursed and swore and declared He didn't even know Jesus - He became one of the greatest preachers that ever lived.

Belief is a journey. Maybe that's why you're here.

Nice spin there CP. The fact is that the disciples couldn't believe that Jesus would resurrect without seeing it with their own eyes, none of them, yet we are required to either believe or go to hell. It's dumb!

[Cow Poke]

Nice spin there CP. The fact is that the disciples couldn't believe that Jesus would resurrect without seeing it with their own eyes, none of them, yet we are required to either believe or go to hell. It's dumb!

Stages of belief, Jim. A journey. Peter had declared Jesus as the Christ, prior to the resurrection.

Matthew 16:16 (KJV) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

[Doug Shaver]

Belief is a journey.

Indeed it is. The beliefs comprising my current worldview are the result of a journey that has lasted well over half a century.

[Roy]

I got my information from the Bible, Sparko. Specifically, from Luke 24:

Note that the Eleven and those with them are saying "It is true! The Lord has risen" before they meet Jesus for themselves. Before he appeared among them, before he helped them fish, and before the doubts of Thomas, who wasn't even absent in this account.

The gospel authors* are quite happy that some of the people who knew or knew of Jesus might believe he rose without seeing him in person - but you aren't.

*apart from whoever wrote the addendum to Mark.

[Roy]

It's possible they were. It's also possible they weren't.

Yeah, yeah, it's easy to just throw your hands up and pretend we can't say which was more likely.

It's even easier to just throw your hands up and pretend your argument isn't imperfect.

[Roy]

I'm tired and sick so I'm bowing out

Hope you recover soon.