Nobody Dies for a Lie

[Cow Poke]

I got my information from the Bible, Sparko. Specifically, from Acts 24:

[Cleopas and his companion] got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread. While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

Note that the Eleven and those with them are saying "It is true! The Lord has risen" before they meet Jesus for themselves. Before he appeared among them, before he helped them fish, and before the doubts of Thomas, who wasn't even absent in this account.

The gospel authors* are quite happy that some of the people who knew or knew of Jesus might believe he rose without seeing him in person - but you aren't.

*apart from whoever wrote the addendum to Mark.

Not Acts 24

[Roy]

You must be looking in the mirror, CP. The point is obviously going right over your head. The Disciples (who lived with and followed Jesus) did not believe without seeing.

That may be Sparko's argument, but it's not necessarily what the bible says.

[Roy]

Not Acts 24

AAAAArgh!

Luke 24!!!!!

I've fixed it now so no-one will know I screwed up and will think you are imaginig things...

[Cow Poke]

Note that the Eleven and those with them are saying "It is true! The Lord has risen" before they meet Jesus for themselves. Before he appeared among them, before he helped them fish, and before the doubts of Thomas, who wasn't even absent in this account.

I think a lot is getting lost in the back-and-forth. Your quote, of course, is from Luke, not Acts (simple mistake) and in the NIV. Prior to "the eleven and those with them" saying things, there was a lot going on, including the narrative concerning the empty tomb. That, of course, was considered evidence that Jesus was alive, especially with the account of the "men in shining garments" explaining that Jesus had risen. Peter had run back to see the tomb was empty.

[One Bad Pig]

It's even easier to just throw your hands up and pretend your argument isn't imperfect.

Clever. The issue is that the evidence is insufficiently explicit for you to accept. No argument, however perfectly crafted, is going to get around that. I'm not expecting to convince you; you'll always find something to nitpick.

[Sparko]

Jesus actually has something to say about that - Jesus said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." John 20:29

I'm good with that!



We are to believe God, and the Bible He wrote.

...And the universe he made. And those who went before us. And his work in our lives. Everything points to God if someone actually pays attention.

[Sparko]

We do the same exact thing daily when we chose what accounts we accept or reject - not as rigorously as a court of law or a science lab, but the same precise thing.
No, it isn't silly Tea, our eternal lives aren't dependent upon our information derived opinions, or conclusions. No one is going to hell due to their conclusion that gravity waves don't exist.

Everything you hear in the news or read in the paper, or see on TV is just you taking on faith what others tell you. Your entire world view is based on such things, JimL. The fact that you don't believe in God, why you are a democrat, everything you believe about Trump, or that Trump even exists is all based on second hand and third hand accounts.

[Sparko]

You must be looking in the mirror, CP. The point is obviously going right over your head. The Disciples (who lived with and followed Jesus) did not believe without seeing. Try to hold that simple notion in your head for a moment without confusing yourself with spin. If you or I don't believe without seeing, we supposedly go to hell because unless we believe you can't be saved, right. You don't see the double standard there?

They believed in God Jimbo. They just didn't believe Jesus was God until he showed them. Why would they? If I told you I was God, would you believe me without evidence?

[Sparko]

The point I've been making rogue, which is apparently going right over your head as well, is that the disciples lacked faith, they, who lived and followed Jesus, didn't believe in his resurrection themselves until they seen him with their own eyes. Did you ever ask yourself why a god would require the rest of us to believe or be doomed when even his own disciples didn't believe? Like you, the very idea is idiotic.

You don't have to believe in Jesus or be doomed. You can always just never sin. or is it too late for that?

The disciples did not have the written testimonies of others to read, they lived it. Like any court of law, the people in the incident live through it, and later people have to listen to their testimonies and decide whether to believe them or not.

We have their testimonies. We can decide for ourselves to believe them or not.

[Sparko]

I got my information from the Bible, Sparko. Specifically, from Luke 24:

[Cleopas and his companion] got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread. While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

Note that the Eleven and those with them are saying "It is true! The Lord has risen" before they meet Jesus for themselves. Before he appeared among them, before he helped them fish, and before the doubts of Thomas, who wasn't even absent in this account.

The gospel authors* are quite happy that some of the people who knew or knew of Jesus might believe he rose without seeing him in person - but you aren't.

*apart from whoever wrote the addendum to Mark.

wow. Your extreme nitpicking has reached new lows, Roy. They believed Simon who went and looked at the empty tomb. wow. But then they witnessed Jesus among them. Thomas still doubted until shown proof.

[Cow Poke]

wow. Your extreme nitpicking has reached new lows, Roy. They believed Simon who went and looked at the empty tomb. wow. But then they witnessed Jesus among them. Thomas still doubted until shown proof.

Stages of belief - that Messiah had come and lived among them was incredibly difficult for them to accept. But, eventually, they did.

[Sparko]

Stages of belief - that Messiah had come and lived among them was incredibly difficult for them to accept. But, eventually, they did.

Roy will pick something apart till he has a small enough isolated chunk that he can use to make his point while ignoring the rest of scripture.

[Roy]

wow. Your extreme nitpicking has reached new lows, Roy. They believed Simon who went and looked at the empty tomb. wow.

Uh, Sparko, that's not what Luke's gospel says. I've quoted it twice now, so you really have no excuse for getting it wrong:

There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.”

Paul says the same in 1-Corinthians 15:

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.

They aren't saying that Peter/Simon went and looked at the empty tomb, they're saying that Peter/Simon saw the risen Jesus before the other disciples did, after he went to look at the empty tomb and departed wonderingly, and before he rejoined the others.

Not that it matters whether Peter/Simon saw the empty tomb or saw the risen Jesus. The point is that according to Luke at least some of the eleven were proclaiming that Jesus had risen before they saw him themselves. Something you said those who knew Jesus would not do.

I'm going to finish this conversation with one last point. You've repeatedly complained that I refuse to agree that (according to Luke) James b.o. Jesus saw the risen Jesus, because Luke doesn't mention the meeting directly. Now you are complaining that I'm saying that (according to Luke) Peter/Simon did see the risen Jesus, because Luke mentions the meeting indirectly.

[JimL]

You don't have to believe in Jesus or be doomed. You can always just never sin. or is it too late for that?

Really? First off we are imperfect beings so it is impossible to never do what we call sin. Unless you want to argue that a sinful act is not a sin unless we know it's a sin.

The disciples did not have the written testimonies of others to read, they lived it. Like any court of law, the people in the incident live through it, and later people have to listen to their testimonies and decide whether to believe them or not.

We have their testimonies. We can decide for ourselves to believe them or not.

The disciples didn't need written testimony if they were the testifiers? Duh! You are simply making my point for me. The disciples didn't believe Jesus testimony to them, they were shocked to hear of his resurrection, could hardly believe it when he appeared to them, and yet we, the rest of the human race, are supposedly required to believe the disciples testimony or go to hell. Again, it's beyond idiotic to believe such a story, or to put ones faith in the existence of such an unjust god.

[Sparko]

Really? First off we are imperfect beings so it is impossible to never do what we call sin. Unless you want to argue that a sinful act is not a sin unless we know it's a sin.

Actually Romans 2 says your own conscience will accuse or acquit you.
Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)



Well then, I guess if you sin you will need to pay the price unless you can figure some way out.

The disciples didn't need written testimony if they were the testifiers? Duh! You are simply making my point for me. The disciples didn't believe Jesus testimony to them, they were shocked to hear of his resurrection, could hardly believe it when he appeared to them, and yet we, the rest of the human race, are supposedly required to believe the disciples testimony or go to hell. Again, it's beyond idiotic to believe such a story, or to put ones faith in the existence of such an unjust god.

Jim, I know you think you are being clever here, but in reality you are being really stupid.