Nobody Dies for a Lie

[JimL]

Not at all difficult to explain, I do it all the time. What's difficult is for atheist to comprehend it.

No, you just like to think you're explaining something because you are perfectly willing to believe illogical nonsense.

[Sparko]

No, you just like to think you're explaining something because you are perfectly willing to believe illogical nonsense.

It's only illogical if someone is arguing for three gods who are one god.

[Cow Poke]

No, you just like to think you're explaining something because you are perfectly willing to believe illogical nonsense.

That's just not true, Jim - I don't believe a word you type!

[JimL]

It's only illogical if someone is arguing for three gods who are one god.

That is what you are arguing, you just don't understand that that is what you are arguing. If I ask you is jesus god, you will answer yes. If I ask you, is yahway god, you will answer yes, if i ask you, is the holy spirit god, you will answer yes. If I ask you are they 3 distinct persons, you will answer yes. And if I then ask you, are those 3 gods 1 god, you will answer yes. You can't really make sense of it, but the nonsense has somehow become acceptable to you, so you just repeat it as if it is sensible.

[Sparko]

That is what you are arguing, you just don't understand that that is what you are arguing. If I ask you is jesus god, you will answer yes. If I ask you, is yahway god, you will answer yes, if i ask you, is the holy spirit god, you will answer yes. If I ask you are they 3 distinct persons, you will answer yes. And if I then ask you, are those 3 gods 1 god, you will answer yes. You can't really make sense of it, but the nonsense has somehow become acceptable to you, so you just repeat it as if it is sensible.

No actually Jim. When I first became a Christian I didn't believe it, but I studied it and saw that is what the bible teaches: That there are three distinct persons who are all fully God, and there is only ONE God.

Here is an article I wrote on it once showing the reasoning and verses behind it. I doubt you will read it, but maybe others will. And at least you can't say I didn't try to explain it to you:

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Introduction

The word Trinity was coined to describe the way that the Bible describes God. The Bible teaches in various places that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God, and yet, it also teaches that there is only ONE God, and that Jesus is not the Father, or Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit is not the Father or Jesus, and so on. So since the Bible is infallible and is the true word of God, we must conclude that there are three persons who are all fully God, and yet there is only ONE God. So the there are three "who"s and one "what." This means that God is one in substance and essence, but three in persons. This concept is called the Trinity. The word doesn't appear in the Bible (neither does the word "Bible" for that matter), but the concept is clearly taught by scripture. We will discuss how this can be below.


Part 1 The history of the concept of the Trinity:

The trinity wasn't "invented" in the fourth century as many believe. It goes back to the very beginning of the church. It is also taught, though not explicitly, in the Bible (I will go into that later). We have many records from early church fathers, going back to the time of John (near 100 ad). I will be quoting some of these sources below, showing that they believed in the Trinity and that Jesus was actually God (note: When a Trinitarian talks about Jesus being God, he doesn't mean that Jesus is the Father. Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.)


Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).

"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Agn. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority...There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

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If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is because Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined. *

The early church believed in the Trinity, as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in, that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.


Part 2 - Why do we believe there IS*a Trinity?
*

Trinitarians believe that there are three persons in ONE God. Not three Gods. To believe that Jesus is divine and Son of God, but completely separate, would mean that there*are TWO Gods. There is only ONE God, the old and new testament says this over and over. *

If Jesus was just the Son of the Father (who is God), then he would have to either have been created by the Father (which we know he wasn't, since ALL things were created by and through him) or he would have to be a second God (since like begets like. A human begets a human, a God would beget a God). So Jesus would have to be another God, or he would have to be a creature, an angel, or cherubim. We know he is not, because he accepts worship, and only God is to be worshiped. And we know that there cannot be two Gods, because the LORD in the Old Testament categorically denies any God before, beside, or after Him. That leaves only ONE logical conclusion, Jesus is the same God that the Father is. But they are two persons. So we have two persons in ONE God. The Holy Spirit is also shown to be a person and God in the New Testament (especially in John chapter 14). This makes three persons in one God. It is hard to understand, but it is the only logical explanation of the various scriptures without going to three different Gods, or saying that the Bible contradicts itself.

Below are some verses that demonstrate this reasoning:

First we must establish that there is only ONE God and no other:

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

The LORD's servant is Jesus (read the passage in context). The LORD says that "I am he", stating that He and the Servant are the same! Also, note no God was formed before the LORD nor after.

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."*

Next, we show that Jesus is God

In the list below, you will see that there are many passages in the Bible that equate Jesus with the God of the old testament, known as Yahweh (YHWH), or LORD, or Jehovah. There are verses in the Bible that give YHWH certain titles and attributes, and other verses that give Jesus those same attributes and titles.

*YHWH is Creator

*Isaiah 44:24 "This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

*Isaiah 48:13 "My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Jesus is Creator

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

YHWH is the "First and the Last"

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

Jesus is the "First and the Last"

Rev. 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

Rev. 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

Rev. 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

YHWH is "I AM" (ego eimi)

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

See also Deut. 32.39

Jesus is "I AM" (ego eimi in Greek)

John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NKJV)

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 13:19 "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."

YHWH is Judge

Joel 3:12 "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side." (God is speaking)

Rom. 14:10 "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

*Ezekiel 34:17 "`As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 20 "`Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another.

Jesus is Judge

2 Tim. 4:1 "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."

2 Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

*Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

John 5: 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him

YHWH is King

Jeremiah 10:10 "But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath."

Isaiah 44:6-8 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

See also Psalm 47

Jesus is King

Matthew 2:2 "...Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

Luke 23:3 So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

See also John 19:21

YHWH is Savior

Isaiah 43:3 "For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"

Isaiah 45:21 "...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

Hosea 13: 4 "But I am the LORD your God, [who brought you] out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.

Jesus is Savior

John 4:42 "They said to the woman, ‘We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.’"

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

YHWH is Shepherd

Psalm 23:1 Psalm 23 A psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

Isaiah 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.

*Ezekiel 34:11 "`For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

Jesus is Shepherd

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

Hebrews 13:20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

See also John 10:14,16; 1 Pet. 2:25

*John 10: 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

YHWH is the Rock

Deut. 32:4 "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."

See also 2 Sam. 22:32 and Isaiah 17:10.

Jesus is the Rock

1 Cor. 10:4 "...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

See also 1 Peter 2:6-8.

YHWH is the Light

Psalm 27:1 "The LORD is my light and my salvation -- whom shall I fear?"

Isaiah 60:20 Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.

1 John 1:5 "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."

Jesus is the Light

John 8:12 "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Luke 2:32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."

See also John 1:7-9

Unless otherwise noted, all quotations are from the NIV Bible.

Some additional comparisons between the LORD and Jesus:

Isaiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. … 9 You who bring good tidings to Zion, go up on a high mountain. You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with a shout, lift it up, do not be afraid; say to the towns of Judah, "Here is your God!" 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.

Isaiah is talking about Jesus yet the verse clearly used the name LORD (YHWH) and specifically says "Here is your God!"

*Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

*Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

Immanuel means "God is with us." Jesus means "the LORD saves." Who does it say will do the saving in verse 21? Jesus.

*

Worship

Only the LORD God should be worshiped. Not men, not false gods, not angels - nobody but God.

Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

*Revelation 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

Colossians 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

*

The LORD (YHWH) was worshiped.

Exodus 8:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, `This is what the LORD says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me.

*Nehemiah 8:6 Ezra praised the LORD, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground.

*1 Samuel 15:1 So Samuel went back with Saul, and Saul worshiped the LORD.

*Jesus was worshiped

Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Luke 24:51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

John 9:37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." 38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

Note: the Greek word used for worship in the above passages is the same word as used when speaking of worshiping God, the Father. So the worship Jesus received was the same kind and level of worship the Father received. Jesus never reprimanded anyone for this worship, in fact he accepted it as his due.

*John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Saying that Jesus should be honored JUST as they honor the Father, Jesus was claiming EQUALITY with the Father in all respects, for how can someone honor a lesser person to the same degree as a greater?

The Fourfold Gospel notes say: " ’Even as’ means in the same manner and in equal degree. The prerogative of judgment was committed unto Jesus that men might behold his true majesty. If this verse does not teach us to worship Jesus as God, language cannot teach it, for God gives not his glory unto another.

*And a few verses previous to this we see:

*John 5:17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

When Jesus (Son of God) called God 'My Father' the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be more than 'a' son of God. He was claiming he was equal to God. Jesus = God. Someone could be a son of God in a metaphorical sense, but Jesus was claiming he was the Son of God. A true son would have the Nature of his Father, in this case being a God. Since there can only be one God, the Jews took this as Blasphemy. John Wesley’s Notes on the Bible says this: 'His own Father - The Greek word means his own Father in such a sense as no creature can speak. Making himself equal with God - It is evident all the hearers so understood him, and that our Lord never contradicted, but confirmed it.'

Jesus would have corrected the Jews if their conclusion was wrong. He didn’t. Instead he claimed that they should honor him just as they honor the Father (see John 5:22 above)

Jesus is directly called God and Savior:

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

*Jesus is called God:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

*2 Timothy 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He (1) appeared in a body (2), was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. NIV footnotes: (1) Some manuscripts God -- (2) Or in the flesh

*John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

*God the Father calls Jesus God:

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."* 7 In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." 8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

You can’t get a better endorsement than that! God the Father*is calling the Son "God" in two verses.

Next, we show that the Father is God

The LORD is the Father

Jeremiah 3:19 "I myself said, "`How gladly would I treat you like sons and give you a desirable land, the most beautiful inheritance of any nation.' I thought you would call me `Father' and not turn away from following me. 20 But like a woman unfaithful to her husband, so you have been unfaithful to me, O house of Israel," declares the LORD.

*Jesus is NOT the Father

Although Jesus said "I and the Father are one" Jesus is obviously a different person than the Father because he talks about the Father as 'his' Father, and he prays to the Father, showing the Father to exist at the same time as Jesus as a different person.

*But, Jesus claimed equality with the Father

See the previous discussion under "Jesus was worshipped"

*

Next, we show the Holy Spirit is God (and a person)

OK we can all agree that the Holy Spirit is from God, right? In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit is mostly called His Spirit, the Spirit of the LORD, or the Spirit of God. The question is: Is the Holy Spirit a person or just some impersonal manifestation of God’s power, something like the Force in Star Wars? And if he is a person, is He God?

The Holy Spirit can be grieved

Isaiah 63: 10 Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

How can a force be grieved? Only a person can feel grief.

Matthew 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

The Holy Spirit is spoke of separately from the Father and the Son, and yet in union with them. "In the name of", means "in the authority or power of." An impersonal force would not have authority on its own. Only a person can have authority. This verse also shows the equality between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is a counselor and speaks and teaches:

Mark 13:11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

Luke 12:12 For the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."

Acts21:11 Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, `In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.'"

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Jesus says he will send ‘another’ counselor (the Holy Spirit) He calls the Spirit "Him", making the Holy Spirit a person. He also says, "I will come to you", equating the Holy Spirit with Himself.

As we saw above Jesus claimed equality with the Father, this makes the Holy Spirit equal with the Father and Jesus.

The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed, and he testifies and speaks

Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Blasphemy is a sin against God, to speak irreverently or slander God Himself. You can’t blaspheme an impersonal force. This verse shows the Holy Spirit is a person, equal to God.

*1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

*Hebrews 10:15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

Acts1:16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus--

Summary:

In summary we see:*



Only one God
Only one Savior.
Only one Messiah.
Only one Shepherd.
Only one Creator.
Only one Judge.
Only God should be worshipped.

*

The LORD is Savior.
Jesus is Savior.

The LORD is Messiah.
Jesus is Messiah.

The Lord is the Shepherd.
Jesus is the Shepherd.

The LORD is Creator.
Jesus is Creator.

The LORD is Judge
Jesus is Judge.

The LORD is worshiped
Jesus is worshiped.

The LORD is the Father.
Jesus is NOT the Father, but Jesus does claim Equality with the Father.

Conclusion:

We see that the LORD God is Jesus, but He is also the Father, but Jesus is NOT the Father (he prays to him). So Jesus and the Father are not the same person. But they are both LORD. If the Father is the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD, and yet they are not the same person, (we will get to the Holy Spirit next), then somehow they are two persons in ONE GOD (the LORD). For there cannot be more than ONE God.

We also believe that the Holy Spirit is GOD and is a person (see above). So now we have three persons all who are God, and yet we know there is only one God. This is the logical conclusion based on the scriptures. This conclusion is called the Trinity. The name Trinity was coined around 300 AD, but as we see, the proof **is** in the scriptures and was always there. If you read the scriptures above (and even more in the Bible) and try to reconcile the claims of the LORD and Jesus, knowing the scripture is never wrong or contradicts itself, you can come to no other conclusion.

Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God. And all three are equal. Three persons in ONE GOD. Not three separate beings. ONE BEING: GOD

*The Trinity is the ONLY way we have to express what we know to be true about God from reading the Bible.

You might say "But I don’t understand it." You don’t have to understand HOW it can be, you can see by the scriptures that it IS that way. You might not understand how electricity works, but you can see that it does work, and you can use it without understanding it. God is infinite, and man is finite. The very fact that we can't understand it fully is evidence of it's truth. Many cults try to tear down the concept of the Trinity, claiming that it is a contradiction and can't be understood. But as we have shown, it IS taught in the Bible, and we believe the Bible to be true. If finite man could understand completely the nature of God, then God would be less than man. We will spend eternity learning about God, and worshiping and loving Him. Surely we can't understand all that now in an instant.*

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." -- 1 Corinthians 13:12

[One Bad Pig]

And if I then ask you, are those 3 gods 1 god, you will answer yes.

No, he won't. If you can't get our beliefs right, you shouldn't be arguing against them.

[Super Cow]

I am coming to this party late, and I am not a Trinitarian per se, so I may be looking at your post from a different perspective. I am hesitant to accept the label of anti-Trinitarian, since I have found after discussions with many trinitarians that their ideas about what it means varies significantly, to the point where I have major disagreements with some, yet agree with others almost in their entirety.

First of all, you say that the concept goes back to the very beginning of the church, but I don't see that supported by your quotes. An anti-trinitarian does not disbelieve the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He just rejects the concept that the Son has always been eternally God.

Ignatius of Antioch: This does not relate to the Trinity at all from what I can read.
Irenaeus: He does not either, unless you think that his reference to Jesus as our Lord and God is the key, but he still treats the three as distinct entities.
Tertullian: This is the first that appears to attempt to explain in writing his definition of the trinity, and is the first I see to reference it by name, but not necessarily by definition as he seems to refer to a trinity almost like a political partnership, not in physical form.
Origen: The third quote of his is definitely a trinitarian doctrine, but I have no disagreement with the first two.

In other words, as a non-trinitarian I can agree with every early writer except for once sentence by Origen which appears to have been first written 200 years after Jesus died. I don't think the anti-trinitarian sources say it was never taught before Nicea. If that was the case, it would never have come up for debate at the council. And furthermore, it wasn't solidified throughout the Catholic church for another 50 years or so after the council. (And longer if you consider that Rome had civil wars off and on for another 200 years before they fully eradicated the Aryan countries.)

I don't particularly argue for JimL's position though. I understand the logical arguments you present for the Trinity. I just don't agree with them. I don't like to argue about the specifics anymore, and I think arguing point by point through your scripture references belongs in another thread. I have come to the realization that it is a bunch of word games, regardless of which side you believe. (Other than the agnostic/atheist argument of course, which is a dead end discussion.)

[Sparko]

I am coming to this party late, and I am not a Trinitarian per se, so I may be looking at your post from a different perspective. I am hesitant to accept the label of anti-Trinitarian, since I have found after discussions with many trinitarians that their ideas about what it means varies significantly, to the point where I have major disagreements with some, yet agree with others almost in their entirety.

First of all, you say that the concept goes back to the very beginning of the church, but I don't see that supported by your quotes. An anti-trinitarian does not disbelieve the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He just rejects the concept that the Son has always been eternally God.

Ignatius of Antioch: This does not relate to the Trinity at all from what I can read.
Irenaeus: He does not either, unless you think that his reference to Jesus as our Lord and God is the key, but he still treats the three as distinct entities.
Tertullian: This is the first that appears to attempt to explain in writing his definition of the trinity, and is the first I see to reference it by name, but not necessarily by definition as he seems to refer to a trinity almost like a political partnership, not in physical form.
Origen: The third quote of his is definitely a trinitarian doctrine, but I have no disagreement with the first two.

In other words, as a non-trinitarian I can agree with every early writer except for once sentence by Origen which appears to have been first written 200 years after Jesus died. I don't think the anti-trinitarian sources say it was never taught before Nicea. If that was the case, it would never have come up for debate at the council. And furthermore, it wasn't solidified throughout the Catholic church for another 50 years or so after the council. (And longer if you consider that Rome had civil wars off and on for another 200 years before they fully eradicated the Aryan countries.)

I don't particularly argue for JimL's position though. I understand the logical arguments you present for the Trinity. I just don't agree with them. I don't like to argue about the specifics anymore, and I think arguing point by point through your scripture references belongs in another thread. I have come to the realization that it is a bunch of word games, regardless of which side you believe. (Other than the agnostic/atheist argument of course, which is a dead end discussion.)

well I am not going to start a debate on it here, but the quotes were showing they believed Jesus was God. Not that they believed in the word "trinity" or that they had a fully developed doctrine of the trinity. I was just showing that the concept was there, that Jesus is God and that there is one God.


Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).

"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

[Sparko]

I am coming to this party late, and I am not a Trinitarian per se,

Note: If you are a non-trinitarian you need to change your faith designation to unorthodox Christian.

[One Bad Pig]

I have come to the realization that [the debate over the Trinity] is a bunch of word games, regardless of which side you believe.

I quite disagree. The doctrines of the Trinity and Christology have implications which go quite beyond the theological arguments. This was a core part of the arguments of, for example, Athanasius of Alexandria and the Cappadocian Fathers for the orthodox position. A modern work which incidentally brings this out is Theological Dialogue Between Orthodox and Reformed Churches ed. T. F. Torrance (if you get it through ILL, you'd probably read the same copy I'm about to return, since I live about an hour west of you).

[lilpixieofterror]

Wow, you really do live in a fantasy world don't you Lilpix. Having a concept of innocence, which btw, we adults do not lack, is not the same thing as being innocent, and little kids are not honest at all, and they are as gullible as you are, which is obviously very gullible.

So you don’t actually understand anything about children? Got it.

[Tassman]

Note: If you are a non-trinitarian you need to change your faith designation to unorthodox Christian.

Or "heretic", then you could burn him at the stake like they did in the good ol' days. Wouldn't that be fun?

[JimL]

No actually Jim. When I first became a Christian I didn't believe it, but I studied it and saw that is what the bible teaches: That there are three distinct persons who are all fully God, and there is only ONE God.

Here is an article I wrote on it once showing the reasoning and verses behind it. I doubt you will read it, but maybe others will. And at least you can't say I didn't try to explain it to you:

----

Introduction

The word Trinity was coined to describe the way that the Bible describes God. The Bible teaches in various places that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God, and yet, it also teaches that there is only ONE God, and that Jesus is not the Father, or Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit is not the Father or Jesus, and so on. So since the Bible is infallible and is the true word of God, we must conclude that there are three persons who are all fully God, and yet there is only ONE God. So the there are three "who"s and one "what." This means that God is one in substance and essence, but three in persons. This concept is called the Trinity. The word doesn't appear in the Bible (neither does the word "Bible" for that matter), but the concept is clearly taught by scripture. We will discuss how this can be below.


Part 1 The history of the concept of the Trinity:

The trinity wasn't "invented" in the fourth century as many believe. It goes back to the very beginning of the church. It is also taught, though not explicitly, in the Bible (I will go into that later). We have many records from early church fathers, going back to the time of John (near 100 ad). I will be quoting some of these sources below, showing that they believed in the Trinity and that Jesus was actually God (note: When a Trinitarian talks about Jesus being God, he doesn't mean that Jesus is the Father. Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.)


Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).

"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Agn. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority...There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

========
If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is because Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined. *

The early church believed in the Trinity, as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in, that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.


Part 2 - Why do we believe there IS*a Trinity?
*

Trinitarians believe that there are three persons in ONE God. Not three Gods. To believe that Jesus is divine and Son of God, but completely separate, would mean that there*are TWO Gods. There is only ONE God, the old and new testament says this over and over. *

If Jesus was just the Son of the Father (who is God), then he would have to either have been created by the Father (which we know he wasn't, since ALL things were created by and through him) or he would have to be a second God (since like begets like. A human begets a human, a God would beget a God). So Jesus would have to be another God, or he would have to be a creature, an angel, or cherubim. We know he is not, because he accepts worship, and only God is to be worshiped. And we know that there cannot be two Gods, because the LORD in the Old Testament categorically denies any God before, beside, or after Him. That leaves only ONE logical conclusion, Jesus is the same God that the Father is. But they are two persons. So we have two persons in ONE God. The Holy Spirit is also shown to be a person and God in the New Testament (especially in John chapter 14). This makes three persons in one God. It is hard to understand, but it is the only logical explanation of the various scriptures without going to three different Gods, or saying that the Bible contradicts itself.

Below are some verses that demonstrate this reasoning:

First we must establish that there is only ONE God and no other:

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

The LORD's servant is Jesus (read the passage in context). The LORD says that "I am he", stating that He and the Servant are the same! Also, note no God was formed before the LORD nor after.

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."*

Next, we show that Jesus is God

In the list below, you will see that there are many passages in the Bible that equate Jesus with the God of the old testament, known as Yahweh (YHWH), or LORD, or Jehovah. There are verses in the Bible that give YHWH certain titles and attributes, and other verses that give Jesus those same attributes and titles.

*YHWH is Creator

*Isaiah 44:24 "This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

*Isaiah 48:13 "My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Jesus is Creator

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

YHWH is the "First and the Last"

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

Jesus is the "First and the Last"

Rev. 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

Rev. 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

Rev. 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

YHWH is "I AM" (ego eimi)

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

See also Deut. 32.39

Jesus is "I AM" (ego eimi in Greek)

John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NKJV)

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 13:19 "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."

YHWH is Judge

Joel 3:12 "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side." (God is speaking)

Rom. 14:10 "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

*Ezekiel 34:17 "`As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 20 "`Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another.

Jesus is Judge

2 Tim. 4:1 "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."

2 Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

*Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

John 5: 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him

YHWH is King

Jeremiah 10:10 "But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath."

Isaiah 44:6-8 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

See also Psalm 47

Jesus is King

Matthew 2:2 "...Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

Luke 23:3 So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

See also John 19:21

YHWH is Savior

Isaiah 43:3 "For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"

Isaiah 45:21 "...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

Hosea 13: 4 "But I am the LORD your God, [who brought you] out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.

Jesus is Savior

John 4:42 "They said to the woman, ‘We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.’"

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

YHWH is Shepherd

Psalm 23:1 Psalm 23 A psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

Isaiah 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.

*Ezekiel 34:11 "`For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

Jesus is Shepherd

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

Hebrews 13:20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

See also John 10:14,16; 1 Pet. 2:25

*John 10: 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

YHWH is the Rock

Deut. 32:4 "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."

See also 2 Sam. 22:32 and Isaiah 17:10.

Jesus is the Rock

1 Cor. 10:4 "...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

See also 1 Peter 2:6-8.

YHWH is the Light

Psalm 27:1 "The LORD is my light and my salvation -- whom shall I fear?"

Isaiah 60:20 Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.

1 John 1:5 "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."

Jesus is the Light

John 8:12 "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Luke 2:32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."

See also John 1:7-9

Unless otherwise noted, all quotations are from the NIV Bible.

Some additional comparisons between the LORD and Jesus:

Isaiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. Â… 9 You who bring good tidings to Zion, go up on a high mountain. You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with a shout, lift it up, do not be afraid; say to the towns of Judah, "Here is your God!" 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.

Isaiah is talking about Jesus yet the verse clearly used the name LORD (YHWH) and specifically says "Here is your God!"

*Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

*Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

Immanuel means "God is with us." Jesus means "the LORD saves." Who does it say will do the saving in verse 21? Jesus.

*

Worship

Only the LORD God should be worshiped. Not men, not false gods, not angels - nobody but God.

Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

*Revelation 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

Colossians 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

*

The LORD (YHWH) was worshiped.

Exodus 8:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, `This is what the LORD says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me.

*Nehemiah 8:6 Ezra praised the LORD, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground.

*1 Samuel 15:1 So Samuel went back with Saul, and Saul worshiped the LORD.

*Jesus was worshiped

Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Luke 24:51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

John 9:37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." 38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

Note: the Greek word used for worship in the above passages is the same word as used when speaking of worshiping God, the Father. So the worship Jesus received was the same kind and level of worship the Father received. Jesus never reprimanded anyone for this worship, in fact he accepted it as his due.

*John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Saying that Jesus should be honored JUST as they honor the Father, Jesus was claiming EQUALITY with the Father in all respects, for how can someone honor a lesser person to the same degree as a greater?

The Fourfold Gospel notes say: " Â’Even asÂ’ means in the same manner and in equal degree. The prerogative of judgment was committed unto Jesus that men might behold his true majesty. If this verse does not teach us to worship Jesus as God, language cannot teach it, for God gives not his glory unto another.

*And a few verses previous to this we see:

*John 5:17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

When Jesus (Son of God) called God 'My Father' the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be more than 'a' son of God. He was claiming he was equal to God. Jesus = God. Someone could be a son of God in a metaphorical sense, but Jesus was claiming he was the Son of God. A true son would have the Nature of his Father, in this case being a God. Since there can only be one God, the Jews took this as Blasphemy. John WesleyÂ’s Notes on the Bible says this: 'His own Father - The Greek word means his own Father in such a sense as no creature can speak. Making himself equal with God - It is evident all the hearers so understood him, and that our Lord never contradicted, but confirmed it.'

Jesus would have corrected the Jews if their conclusion was wrong. He didnÂ’t. Instead he claimed that they should honor him just as they honor the Father (see John 5:22 above)

Jesus is directly called God and Savior:

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

*Jesus is called God:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

*2 Timothy 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He (1) appeared in a body (2), was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. NIV footnotes: (1) Some manuscripts God -- (2) Or in the flesh

*John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

*God the Father calls Jesus God:

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."* 7 In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." 8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

You canÂ’t get a better endorsement than that! God the Father*is calling the Son "God" in two verses.

Next, we show that the Father is God

The LORD is the Father

Jeremiah 3:19 "I myself said, "`How gladly would I treat you like sons and give you a desirable land, the most beautiful inheritance of any nation.' I thought you would call me `Father' and not turn away from following me. 20 But like a woman unfaithful to her husband, so you have been unfaithful to me, O house of Israel," declares the LORD.

*Jesus is NOT the Father

Although Jesus said "I and the Father are one" Jesus is obviously a different person than the Father because he talks about the Father as 'his' Father, and he prays to the Father, showing the Father to exist at the same time as Jesus as a different person.

*But, Jesus claimed equality with the Father

See the previous discussion under "Jesus was worshipped"

*

Next, we show the Holy Spirit is God (and a person)

OK we can all agree that the Holy Spirit is from God, right? In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit is mostly called His Spirit, the Spirit of the LORD, or the Spirit of God. The question is: Is the Holy Spirit a person or just some impersonal manifestation of GodÂ’s power, something like the Force in Star Wars? And if he is a person, is He God?

The Holy Spirit can be grieved

Isaiah 63: 10 Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

How can a force be grieved? Only a person can feel grief.

Matthew 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

The Holy Spirit is spoke of separately from the Father and the Son, and yet in union with them. "In the name of", means "in the authority or power of." An impersonal force would not have authority on its own. Only a person can have authority. This verse also shows the equality between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is a counselor and speaks and teaches:

Mark 13:11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

Luke 12:12 For the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."

Acts21:11 Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, `In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.'"

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Jesus says he will send ‘another’ counselor (the Holy Spirit) He calls the Spirit "Him", making the Holy Spirit a person. He also says, "I will come to you", equating the Holy Spirit with Himself.

As we saw above Jesus claimed equality with the Father, this makes the Holy Spirit equal with the Father and Jesus.

The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed, and he testifies and speaks

Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Blasphemy is a sin against God, to speak irreverently or slander God Himself. You canÂ’t blaspheme an impersonal force. This verse shows the Holy Spirit is a person, equal to God.

*1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

*Hebrews 10:15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

Acts1:16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus--

Summary:

In summary we see:*



Only one God
Only one Savior.
Only one Messiah.
Only one Shepherd.
Only one Creator.
Only one Judge.
Only God should be worshipped.

*

The LORD is Savior.
Jesus is Savior.

The LORD is Messiah.
Jesus is Messiah.

The Lord is the Shepherd.
Jesus is the Shepherd.

The LORD is Creator.
Jesus is Creator.

The LORD is Judge
Jesus is Judge.

The LORD is worshiped
Jesus is worshiped.

The LORD is the Father.
Jesus is NOT the Father, but Jesus does claim Equality with the Father.

Conclusion:

We see that the LORD God is Jesus, but He is also the Father, but Jesus is NOT the Father (he prays to him). So Jesus and the Father are not the same person. But they are both LORD. If the Father is the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD, and yet they are not the same person, (we will get to the Holy Spirit next), then somehow they are two persons in ONE GOD (the LORD). For there cannot be more than ONE God.

We also believe that the Holy Spirit is GOD and is a person (see above). So now we have three persons all who are God, and yet we know there is only one God. This is the logical conclusion based on the scriptures. This conclusion is called the Trinity. The name Trinity was coined around 300 AD, but as we see, the proof **is** in the scriptures and was always there. If you read the scriptures above (and even more in the Bible) and try to reconcile the claims of the LORD and Jesus, knowing the scripture is never wrong or contradicts itself, you can come to no other conclusion.

Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God. And all three are equal. Three persons in ONE GOD. Not three separate beings. ONE BEING: GOD

*The Trinity is the ONLY way we have to express what we know to be true about God from reading the Bible.

You might say "But I donÂ’t understand it." You donÂ’t have to understand HOW it can be, you can see by the scriptures that it IS that way. You might not understand how electricity works, but you can see that it does work, and you can use it without understanding it. God is infinite, and man is finite. The very fact that we can't understand it fully is evidence of it's truth. Many cults try to tear down the concept of the Trinity, claiming that it is a contradiction and can't be understood. But as we have shown, it IS taught in the Bible, and we believe the Bible to be true. If finite man could understand completely the nature of God, then God would be less than man. We will spend eternity learning about God, and worshiping and loving Him. Surely we can't understand all that now in an instant.*

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." -- 1 Corinthians 13:12

Sparko, illogical nonsense doesn't become justified simply because you think it's biblical. You are using the bible to justify your belief in what you would otherwise recognize to be illogical nonsense. Even you acknowledge this in the above when you say: "This makes 3 persons in 1 god. It's hard to understand, but it is the only logical explanation of the various scriptures without going to 3 different gods, or saying that the bible contradicts itself."
Yes, it is hard to understand, and the reason it is so hard to understand is because it is not a logical explanation as you contend, it's hard to understand because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever, but if you are going to believe that Jesus is actually god then you are going to have to just throw your hands up in the air and say, well it's in the bible, so as ridiculous as it may seem, it must be so!

[Bill the Cat]

Sparko, illogical nonsense doesn't become justified simply because you think it's biblical. You are using the bible to justify your belief in what you would otherwise recognize to be illogical nonsense. Even you acknowledge this in the above when you say: "This makes 3 persons in 1 god. It's hard to understand, but it is the only logical explanation of the various scriptures without going to 3 different gods, or saying that the bible contradicts itself."
Yes, it is hard to understand, and the reason it is so hard to understand is because it is not a logical explanation as you contend, it's hard to understand because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever, but if you are going to believe that Jesus is actually god then you are going to have to just throw your hands up in the air and say, well it's in the bible, so as ridiculous as it may seem, it must be so!

What a stunning rebuttal...

[seer]

What a stunning rebuttal...

Wait, JimL is probably going to believe you....