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  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Again, the ex nihilo is theology. We can only scientifically know of our universe as the evidence, nothing prior. And for all our observations it seems to have a finite size and origin.
    Again, this does not reflect the current knowledge, cosmological models, and objective verifiable evidence. You stated that models are not evidence. This is true, but even the various versions of BB are models just like the different other models are based on the evidence and math models. No definitive beginning without prior existence has been concluded by the physicists and cosmologists based any of the models.

    You are selectively 'arguing from ignorance' and only citing superficially what agrees with you without any knowledge nor background in the science and math involved.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Again, this does not reflect the current knowledge, cosmological models, and objective verifiable evidence. You stated that models are not evidence. This is true, but even the various versions of BB are models just like the different other models are based on the evidence and math models. No definitive beginning without prior existence has been concluded by the physicists and cosmologists based any of the models.

      You are selectively 'arguing from ignorance' and only citing superficially what agrees with you without any knowledge nor background in the science and math involved.
      Models of what cannot be tested physically are metaphysical arguments.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Models of what cannot be tested physically are metaphysical arguments.
        Than BB models are metaphysical arguments by your definition.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          What is invisible and omnipresent? The Hebrew's God. Space time. The Hebrew's God is not space time. It was,
          There are thousands of creation myths. There is no good reason to think that the Hebrews’ god is any more than one of them.

          BTW, Judeo-Christian thinking which brought about science. Is that not true?
          No. Science began with the ancient Greeks and modern science can be said to have originated with Copernicus and Galileo in the West and in the Arab world during the Golden Age of Islam. in the East

          Again, the ex nihilo is theology. We can only scientifically know of our universe as the evidence, nothing prior. And for all our observations it seems to have a finite size and origin.
          We cannot say that this universe had an absolute beginning, because we do not know what happened during the Planck Epoch. But we know something happened.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            There are thousands of creation myths. There is no good reason to think that the Hebrews’ god is any more than one of them.
            How many of them are ex nihilo?


            No. Science began with the ancient Greeks and modern science can be said to have originated with Copernicus and Galileo in the West and in the Arab world during the Golden Age of Islam. in the East
            Oh, so can only be "said to have."


            We cannot say that this universe had an absolute beginning, because we do not know what happened during the Planck Epoch. But we know something happened.
            Metaphysics.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Than BB models are metaphysical arguments by your definition.
              What is my definition of metaphysics that you are disagreeing with?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Models of what cannot be tested physically are metaphysical arguments.
                All the BB models cannot be tested beyond the hypothetical moment after the expansion began, nor any concept of a physical beginning, therefore all BB models are metaphysical arguments for any sort of beginning.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  What is my definition of metaphysics that you are disagreeing with?
                  I believe you are misusing the concept of a metaphysical whatever. I only say that 'by your definition all models including the BB models are metaphysical.'

                  All the BB models cannot be tested beyond the hypothetical moments after the expansion began, nor any concept of a physical beginning, therefore all BB models are metaphysical arguments for any sort of beginning just as other models based on your definition. An actual physical beginning cannot be determined by objective verifiable evidence for any BB models.

                  It is also valid that there are other models such as cyclic models of the universe based on the same data as the different BB models.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-23-2018, 03:00 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    How many of them are ex nihilo?
                    All of them are. That's what creation myths are. They refer to the beginning of things, whether by the will and act of a transcendent being, by emanation from some ultimate source, or in some other way. There are thousands of them, they're all essentially the same...namely an attempt to explain the origins of the universe in a prescientific age.

                    Oh, so can only be "said to have."
                    Copernicus and Galileo et al represent the advent of scientific methodology, which has characterised natural science since their era. It consists of systematic observation, experiment and the testing of hypotheses. This as opposed to metaphysical arguments based upon assumed premises, which was characteristic of the Church of the day.

                    Metaphysics.
                    I prefer to regard it as scientific hypotheses because, at least potentially, inductive scientific reasoning based upon existing knowledge may well result in further knowledge.
                    Last edited by Tassman; 06-23-2018, 08:36 PM.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      All of them are. That's what creation myths are. They refer to the beginning of things, whether by the will and act of a transcendent being, by emanation from some ultimate source, or in some other way. There are thousands of them, they're all essentially the same...namely an attempt to explain the origins of the universe in a prescientific age.
                      Name one such myth prior to the Hebrew story which was ex nihilo creation. Give the key citation from that myth.


                      Copernicus and Galileo et al represent the advent of scientific methodology, which has characterised natural science since their era. It consists of systematic observation, experiment and the testing of hypotheses. This as opposed to metaphysical arguments based upon assumed premises, which was characteristic of the Church of the day.
                      "To know the mighty works of God, to comprehend His wisdom and majesty and power; to appreciate, in degree, the wonderful workings of His laws, surely all this must be a pleasing and acceptable mode of worship to the Most High, to whom ignorance cannot be more grateful than knowledge." -- Copernicus.


                      I prefer to regard it as scientific hypotheses because, at least potentially, inductive scientific reasoning based upon existing knowledge may well result in further knowledge.
                      What science studies are of the natural revelation from God.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        Name one such myth prior to the Hebrew story which was ex nihilo creation. Give the key citation from that myth.
                        Source: https://www.quora.com/What-do-the-Vedas-say-about-the-origin-of-the-universe



                        What do the Vedas say about the origin of the universe?

                        Kiron Krishnan, A comparative religion researcher

                        Answered Dec 17 2015 ·
                        The creation is mentioned many times in Vedas, but they all come to have only a cameo appearance and doubtful phrases. One can impose even the theory of chaos (From chaos, god created universe) in Vedas, but that is just because of a misinterpretation.
                        As of Vedic poems, they are usually two sided, having a natural meaning and a spiritual (or mental) meaning running parallel with beautiful metaphors. I shall explain the "Nasadiya hymn", the famous poem from Rig Veda, that is too such a beautiful one.
                        But sorry, I have to restrict here to the physical interpretation only. :)

                        If you want to read the spiritual interpretation too, visit :
                        Spiritual Creation as by Nasadiya Hymn…

                        Physical creation as by Nasadiya hymn :

                        Neither did non existence exist, nor did existence exist then;
                        Neither did atmosphere exist, nor the skies beyond.
                        what covered it? where? In whose protection?
                        was there water, deep and impervious?

                        The Veda hypothesizes that neither non existence nor existence existed in the beginning. At first, it might seem paradoxical. But such a condition is possible, when there is NO time.
                        Timelessness of God or the initial Cause is not a new concept in this hymn, it is a part of common Vedic philosophy. Note :
                        "An act of today, another act of tomorrow, Indra often makes what yet does not exist"
                        "Neither the months whither Him, nor the autumn seasons, nor years nor days whither Indra" (Rig Veda 6.26)
                        Frequently, Vedas call God as amrta or immortal.
                        Simply, Veda hypothesizes that there was no time before the Creation. Of course, the present science does agree with this observation.
                        The second line tells about the absence of the atmosphere and the sky. This corresponds to the absence of space or air before the beginning.
                        In the next verse, the poet puts questions : what covered the spaceless timeless things? where? In whose protection?
                        The poem continues.
                        The next question typically is for the flood myth advocates :
                        Did Cosmic water exist for creation to occur?
                        (Interestingly, Vedas do not have flood myths, but the later additions to Vedas, the Brahmanas (c.900 BCE) speak of such myths. But Vedic Aryans could have heard about these myths anyway)

                        Neither did death exist, nor did immortality exist then;
                        Neither did night exist, nor the illumined day;
                        Airlessly, by self impulse, That One existed;
                        There was only the One, no other;

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Also . . .

                          Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myth


                          Ex nihilo
                          Main article: Ex nihilo

                          Creation on the exterior shutters of Hieronymus Bosch's triptych The Garden of Earthly Delights (1480–90)
                          The idea that God created the world out of nothing – ex nihilo – is central today to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and the medieval Jewish philosopher Maimonides felt it was the only concept that the three religions shared.[27] Nonetheless, the concept is not found in the entire Hebrew Bible.[28] The authors of Genesis 1 were concerned not with the origins of matter (the material which God formed into the habitable cosmos), but with assigning roles so that the Cosmos should function.[29] In the early 2nd century AD, early Christian scholars were beginning to see a tension between the idea of world-formation and the omnipotence of God, and by the beginning of the 3rd century creation ex nihilo had become a fundamental tenet of Christian theology.[30]

                          Ex nihilo creation is found in creation stories from ancient Egypt, the Rig Veda, and many animistic cultures in Africa, Asia, Oceania and North America.[31] The Debate between sheep and grain is an example of an even earlier form of ex nihilo creation myth from ancient Sumer.[32] In most of these stories the world is brought into being by the speech, dream, breath, or pure thought of a creator but creation ex nihilo may also take place through a creator's bodily secretions.

                          The literal translation of the phrase ex nihilo is "from nothing" but in many creation myths the line is blurred whether the creative act would be better classified as a creation ex nihilo or creation from chaos. In ex nihilo creation myths the potential and the substance of creation springs from within the creator. Such a creator may or may not be existing in physical surroundings such as darkness or water, but does not create the world from them, whereas in creation from chaos the substance used for creation is pre-existing within the unformed void,

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          The older creation myths of the Sumer, which are described in cuneiform tablets describe creation 'ex nihilo,' and are the source of the creation myths of Genesis including the flood legend. The known text of the Sumer and Vedic myths of Creation are much older then any known Biblical text.

                          I can go into more detail, but on one point Tassman is in error. Not all Creation myths of ancient cultures propose creation 'ex nihilo.'
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-24-2018, 12:05 PM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Name one such myth prior to the Hebrew story which was ex nihilo creation. Give the key citation from that myth.
                            Oh there are lots (not all though as shunya rightly says). E.g. The Genesis Creation story borrowed the creatio ex nihilo themes from Mesopotamian mythology, adapting them to the Israelite god. And in the Egyptian creation stories which are the earliest, there are several. E.g. Atum, the source of all the elements and forces in the world, was a self-engendered god,

                            "To know the mighty works of God, to comprehend His wisdom and majesty and power; to appreciate, in degree, the wonderful workings of His laws, surely all this must be a pleasing and acceptable mode of worship to the Most High, to whom ignorance cannot be more grateful than knowledge." -- Copernicus.
                            Belief in the “mighty works of god” is incidental to the methodology of Copernicus and Galileo. They were early examples of the scientific revolution based upon observation of natural laws, establishing hypotheses and performing experiments etc.

                            What science studies are of the natural revelation from God.
                            Really! Give the key citation from that myth of divine revelation.
                            Last edited by Tassman; 06-25-2018, 12:58 AM.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              Oh there are lots (not all though as shunya rightly says). E.g. The Genesis Creation story borrowed the creatio ex nihilo themes from Mesopotamian mythology, adapting them to the Israelite god. And in the Egyptian creation stories which are the earliest, there are several. E.g. Atum, the source of all the elements and forces in the world, was a self-engendered god,
                              Ah, no. The Hebrew account is an refutation, being the ex nihilo claim.


                              Belief in the “mighty works of god” is incidental to the methodology of Copernicus and Galileo. They were early examples of the scientific revolution based upon observation of natural laws, establishing hypotheses and performing experiments etc.
                              They are theists. It was there theism which lead them into their science.


                              Really! Give the key citation from that myth of divine revelation.
                              Not myth. Paul wrote to the Roman church that faith comes from natural revelation, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ." Citing the 19th Psalm. ". . . Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. . . ."
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Ah, no. The Hebrew account is an refutation, being the ex nihilo claim.
                                “An archaeological discovery made in the 20th century shed light on this strange [biblical] account of creation, revealing it for what it is: an abridged version of the Canaanite creation myth.”

                                https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.prem...from-1.5404560

                                They are theists. It was there theism which lead them into their science.
                                It was the theists that opposed their science.

                                Not myth. Paul wrote to the Roman church that faith comes from natural revelation, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ." Citing the 19th Psalm. ". . . Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. . . ."
                                Why would I accept this as authoritative in any way?
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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