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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Oh so you can just throw out "facts" but if I say something I have to provide actual evidence? Can you say double standard? We know that Paul's letters and Acts was written around AD 50-60 within 30 years of the Crucifixion and written down as the events in them actually happened.
    Paul's epistles, maybe, but not Acts. Nor Luke. We don't know that they were written in 50-60AD.
    The gospel of Luke was written close to or at the same time as Acts, and interviewed eye witnesses.
    Eye witnesses to what? And what makes you think the author of Luke interviewed anyone, let alone eyewitnesses, for his gospel?
    Mark was written around 70 and Matthew after that.
    Most authorities consider Luke to be based on Mark, not the other way around.
    This is very close to the events and within the lifetime of the witnesses.
    It's 40 years after the later events recorded in Matthew, and 70 years after the infancy narrative. It's extremely unlikely that there were any eyewitnesses to the massacre of the innocents around when Matthew was written.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
      And what makes you think the author of Luke interviewed anyone, let alone eyewitnesses, for his gospel?
      Luke says he did.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Life expectancy from the age of the bible to the 1700s didn't change all that much: 35-40 years. There are several sources that attest to this. Mark's Gospel is commonly dated to 68-70 AD, putting it 35+ years after the LAST of the events it records. It is the earliest of the Gospels, with Luke/Matt dated to the 80s (earliest) and John to the 90s (earliest), putting them 45+ and 55+ years after the events they record. Acts is likewise dated to the 90s.

        Yes, it is possible some early witnesses still existed. But if they were young men/women in their late teens when Jesus died, they would have been 50+ at the time Mark was written, and that's the youngest they could have been. So the most likely scenario is that there was a smattering of old timers when Mark was written who were alive and credible witnesses (e.g., not toddlers) of the events. There would have been even fewer (if any) when Matt/Luke were written, and most likely none when John and Acts were written. The earliest of the Epistles we have is Thessalonians, which dates to around 51 AD, two decades into the life of the early church. Again, it means that any witnesses of Jesus who were old enough to have heard/understood him (let's say 10+?) would be 30+, approaching the life expectancy number.

        It seems reasonable to me that, by the time Paul begins writing, the early church is populated more with people who never saw/witnessed Jesus than people who did, especially given the far-flung nature of these communities by the time Paul begins writing (Rome, Thessalonica, Corinthia, Jerusalem, Ephesus, Phillipi, etc.).
        Ah I have found your "sources" Carp.

        1. Your link to life expectancy us someone's blog. That is like me quoting Mountain Man as a source and expecting you to believe it.
        John 8:57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” - apparently they didn't think 50 to be an unreachable age. As someone else said, the "average" life expectancy also includes all of the infant mortality. You were lucky to reach adulthood, but once you did, people lived normal live spans barring disease or accident. Your other link is to an abstract to some paper that you can't read without paying for access and you didn't bother quoting anything from it so it can be dismissed.

        2 That seems to be your only sources listed other than a map.

        So much for you supporting your claims with evidence.

        No wonder you didn't want to provide the links when I asked for them. You were probably embarrassed to bring them back up.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
          Paul's epistles, maybe, but not Acts. Nor Luke. We don't know that they were written in 50-60AD. Eye witnesses to what? And what makes you think the author of Luke interviewed anyone, let alone eyewitnesses, for his gospel?

          Except that is exactly what the writer claims, and claims to have personally been with the Apostles in Acts. And you have no good evidence to say otherwise.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Except that is exactly what the writer claims, and claims to have personally been with the Apostles in Acts. And you have no good evidence to say otherwise.
            Apart from the gospel itself, where the author claims to have handed-down accounts from the eyewitnesses, not personal contact with them, and Acts, where he mentions travelling with Paul and meeting James in Jerusalem but doesn't mention meeting any of the original apostles.

            Unless there's some verses I missed?
            Last edited by Roy; 04-20-2018, 09:42 AM.
            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Luke says he did.
              No, he says he has accounts handed down from the eyewitnesses to his group.

              I notice that you have no response to your misdating of Luke/Acts.

              Sometimes I wonder whether Christians know anything about their bible.
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                Apart from the gospel itself, where the author claims to have handed-down accounts from the eyewitnesses, not personal contact with them, and Acts, where he mentions travelling with Paul and meeting James in Jerusalem but doesn't mention meeting any of the original apostles.

                Unless there's some verses I missed?
                He says he investigated the accounts himself from the beginning. And there were more eyewitnesses than just the apostles.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko
                  We know that Paul's letters and Acts was written around AD 50-60 within 30 years of the Crucifixion and written down as the events in them actually happened. The gospel of Luke was written close to or at the same time as Acts, and interviewed eye witnesses.
                  Originally posted by Sparko
                  He says he investigated the accounts himself from the beginning. And there were more eyewitnesses than just the apostles.
                  Investigating accounts does not automatically include interviewing eyewitnesses.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    Apart from the gospel itself, where the author claims to have handed-down accounts from the eyewitnesses, not personal contact with them, and Acts, where he mentions travelling with Paul and meeting James in Jerusalem but doesn't mention meeting any of the original apostles.
                    It is all the same group of men in Acts, Paul and James and the writer were contemporary to Peter and the others. And there is no reason to assume that the writer lied about the eyewitnesses.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      Investigating accounts does not automatically include interviewing eyewitnesses.
                      There is no reason to doubt his veracity other than you just don't want to believe it. Since this is the historically accepted version it is up to you to prove that he did not use eyewitnesses or do an accurate job investigating the story of Jesus.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Luke says he did.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          There is no reason to doubt his veracity other than you just don't want to believe it.
                          I'm not doubting his veracity, I'm accepting what he wrote. He said his group had accounts passed down from the original eyewitnesses. He does not say that he personally spoke to the eyewitnesses. That's your addition.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            I'm not doubting his veracity, I'm accepting what he wrote. He said his group had accounts passed down from the original eyewitnesses. He does not say that he personally spoke to the eyewitnesses. That's your addition.
                            No he said others have given accounts handed down from eyewitnesses so he decided to also give an account since he had investigated it from the beginning (He was with Paul during his travels, meeting the church leaders, James, Barnabas, Mark, etc) which he also talks about in Acts.

                            Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              I'm not doubting his veracity, I'm accepting what he wrote. He said his group had accounts passed down from the original eyewitnesses. He does not say that he personally spoke to the eyewitnesses. That's your addition.
                              And James was not an original eyewitnesses?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                No he said others have given accounts handed down from eyewitnesses so he decided to also give an account since he had investigated it from the beginning (He was with Paul during his travels, meeting the church leaders, James, Barnabas, Mark, etc) which he also talks about in Acts.

                                Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
                                ...and we're back to investing not necessarily including interviewing eyewitnesses.

                                We've also established that Luke was not himself an eyewitness, and, since you're arguing that Luke wrote the gospel after travelling to Jerusalem and back, that there is nothing to indicate that his gospel was read/heard by anyone who was an eyewitness - which was the point I was disputing.
                                Last edited by Roy; 04-20-2018, 12:19 PM.
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                                Comment

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