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Nobody Dies for a Lie

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  • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    The gospels imply that Jesus's family were almost completely absent from his ministry. IIRC the popular later idea was that James was like Paul - initially against Jesus and converted by a resurrection appearance. So James wouldn't have been an eyewitness to much of Jesus' ministry or even death.
    According to Act 1:14, Jesus's brothers had become believers and were with the apostles by the time he was resurrected of which they were eyewitnesses (1 Corinthians 15:3)

    James, the brother of Jesus is also the author of the book of James.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
      Wait, often claimed? When has anyone claimed that the author of Luke and Acts was an eyewitness to Jesus's ministry?
      All too often. There are many, many references to the gospels being four eyewitness accounts. Here, for example.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        I know you did - and what you said had nothing at all to do with the question. So obviously, you also intended not to answer.
        As you wish, Teal. This appears to be yet another attempt to read my mind and divine my motivations. History suggests there's nothing I can say once that has happened to change anyone's mind. I'll leave it to you.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          What irritates me is that you consistently ignore the conversation - you act as if you didn't say things you clearly did or as if previous posts didn't exist. YOU stated it as "Evidence, maybe" - the clear implication being that it might not be evidence. YOU did NOT give any caveat AT ALL about reliability or veracity until several pages later when you had evidently lost track of the conversation.

          I take the time to quote the posts I'm responding to so there's really no excuse for this - you simply aren't reading the post before responding then failing to acknowledge the correction for whatever you misread/misunderstood/took off on a tangent and wasting several additional posts just to get you to address the original point. Here, it was probably an overstatement - had you just paid attention you could have either retracted, conceded, clarified, or corrected to your actual point - and that would have ended the problem.
          Yes, "evidence, maybe" means, to me, that the evidence is weak - likely inadequate. As for losing track of the conversation, that is entirely possible. With multiple participants and multiple separate discussions in each, it happens to me from time to time. When I get a sec, I'll go back and trace the discussion to see what I may have missed.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            So I take that as your way of admitting I am right.
            You may take it any way you wish...
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              As you wish, Teal. This appears to be yet another attempt to read my mind and divine my motivations. History suggests there's nothing I can say once that has happened to change anyone's mind. I'll leave it to you.
              You could perhaps try actually answering the question. This appears to be nothing more than a deflection; note that you didn't even attempt to defend your answer as on-point. Your audience is not limited to Teallaura, you know.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                It's not that I don't see it. I believe it would be very rare for someone to die for something they know to be a lie. But that is not the only possibility here. Some of the other possibilities include:

                1) They weren't dying for their belief about who/what Jesus was, but rather for the benefit they thought his teachings would bring to humanity.
                2) They didn't die at all (we only have fragmentary evidence for what happened to the original apostles
                3) They actually believed it was true (the memory/self-delusion problem, or the problem of historical accuracy).
                4) They weren't killed because of those beliefs, but because of their association with the sect (we have scant records of what they did or did not say before they died).

                In other words, there are a host of historical possibilities besides "they died for a lie." When all of these possibilities are looked at (and there is no way to determine which of these is truly "what happened," or if it was something else entirely), the false dichotomy of "nobody would die for a lie, so it must be true," becomes evident (to me, at least).
                Move the goal posts much? You started off with the OP and a link to a lawyer who killed himself for a cause he believed in. Now you want to include rationales for the apostles actually believing what they preached, contrary to your OP.
                Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  You could perhaps try actually answering the question. This appears to be nothing more than a deflection; note that you didn't even attempt to defend your answer as on-point. Your audience is not limited to Teallaura, you know.
                  When I get a chance, I'll go back and trace the discussion, as promised. I make these posts in breaks between work sessions. I only have so much time. If someone wants to infer from that a nefarious agenda...
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                    Move the goal posts much? You started off with the OP and a link to a lawyer who killed himself for a cause he believed in. Now you want to include rationales for the apostles actually believing what they preached, contrary to your OP.
                    I guess I do not see this as "moving goal posts." My primary point in the OP was that those who use the "nobody kills themselves for a lie" argument who also believe global warming is a lie fostered by the left have a conflict with things like the news story linked. I still hold that position.

                    Since then, the discussion has shifted to whether or not the death of the first apostles translates to "Jesus was who the bible claims he is." If we accept that "nobody dies for a lie," we still don't have "proof" that Jesus is who the bible claims to be because of the other possibilities listed above. As far as I know, those don't apply to the man referenced in the OP, because he left a letter clearly outlining why he was killing himself. In other words, the current discussion is not directly related to my purpose for posting the OP.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      If you don't know which James you were referring to, how is anyone else supposed to?
                      There are only two notable men named James in the New Testament, either one would have known Christ personally.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        If you don't know which James you were referring to, how is anyone else supposed to?
                        Even for you, this is a bit excessive; he answered the question right after he posed it.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          There are only two notable men named James in the New Testament, either one would have known Christ personally.
                          Three, actually.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • OK, I have just traced this thread and tried to follow all of the various exchanges, with an emphasis on the exchanges involving Teal. I read all her comments, and my responses to those comments. As best I can tell, this entire exchange is based on one post where I said, "evidence, maybe; proof, no." Apparently, the "maybe" created the impression that I was proposing that there was an impression that the information about apostolic martyrdom might not be evidence for the life of Jesus being as claimed. I completely missed, in the subsequent discussion, that this turn of phrase had created that perception.

                            In fact, the use of "maybe" was simply a turn of phrase. If someone said to me, "sugar has been shown to contribute to obesity and cancer," my response might be, "obesity, maybe; cancer is not proven." It's my way of saying, "there is adequate evidence to assert that it contributes to obesity, but the jury is still out on cancer." So, in the context of my statement, I was saying, "we can admit the martyrdom of the apostles as evidence for believing the claims about Jesus are true, but I believe it is inadequate evidence (i.e., the claim is not proven).

                            If that was the source of the confusion, and it was based on that brief phrase - hopefully that clarifies. If not, then I have no idea what question it is you think I'm avoiding, so someone will have to restate.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Three, actually.
                              Right and all knew Christ. Though I don't know how notable that third James was.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Right and all knew Christ. Though I don't know how notable that third James was.
                                He was one of the 12 apostles. That alone is notable.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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