Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Nobody Dies for a Lie

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    He's referring to the fact that the falling piano that broke the camels back for me was the widespread Christian opposition to gay rights. As a liberal Christian I had always seen Christianity as the defender of the oppressed and supporter of minorities and so supportive of things like LGBT rights, and so I expected most Christian groups to be like Canada's largest protestant denomination (United Church of Canada) in calling on their government to support same-sex marriage. So I was shocked at the strength of the conservative Christian opposition to LGBT rights, and the forcefulness with which such horrific views were promoted in the public sphere in the name of Christianity. And it was at that point that I ended up doing a more thorough evaluation of whether I really thought Christianity was contributing positively to the world or wanted to be associated with it in any way (answers: no). Even now that about half of denominations seem to have back-peddled on the issue, their behavior still doesn't impress me much.

    I think when he talks about my 'lifestyle' being in conflict with Christianity he's implying that I live 'the gay lifestyle' () and that I chose this over my Christianity. Sadly no, I'm actually single and don't get out enough to meet many people never-mind live any kind of exciting-sounding gay lifestyle. Most of the rest of what OBP seems to be claiming he knows about me but can't talk about is weirdly inaccurate as well to the point where I don't even know what he's referring to in several of his posts. Maybe he's confusing me with someone else?
    There's no need to be coy, SL; your rebuttal is hardly convincing in its less than vigorous denial (of a caricature of a position I didn't state, no less). I've seen your Ph.D. thesis, but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. You indicated when I mentioned that earlier you didn't want that information released. Has that changed? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to discuss in public.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      There's no need to be coy, SL; your rebuttal is hardly convincing in its less than vigorous denial (of a caricature of a position I didn't state, no less). I've seen your Ph.D. thesis, but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. You indicated when I mentioned that earlier you didn't want that information released. Has that changed? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to discuss in public.
      In general, like yourself I value my privacy, and would prefer nothing is said on this forum from private research about me. Though, honestly, why you or anyone else would find me all that interesting baffles me somewhat, and I can assure you that PhD theses are incredibly boring in general and mine is not at all an exception to that rule. I'm neither a public figure nor have led a particularly interesting life beyond being a geek and spending most of my adult life at university.

      Statements I have made about myself publicly on this forum are as far as I feel comfortable in going, and you can copy+paste those to anyone who has questions about me.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Which is how I feel about Dimbulb. He might have a doctorate, but after several years of debating him on tWeb, I have seen nothing to convince me that his intelligence is anything but average at best.
        This coming from the guy whom I once had to link multiple times to a document that had bullet points (about how the APA was adjusting its diagnoses and why) and you still didn't manage to have the reading comprehension to understand what the bullet point said.

        Dunning-Kruger much?
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
          Why should I give any credence to the uneducated (and on the best arguments for Christian theism, the bulk of secular academics and scientists are uneducated) beliefs of 'experts' in unrelated fields?
          If the arguments for Christianity had any great merit, those that study them would have made them known to others, who would in turn have made them known to others, etc.

          So:
          Might as well conduct a survey of botanists, primary school teachers, lawyers and firemen to decide if any of the theories of Quantum Physics are worth the paper they're written on.
          Every one of those people surveyed would say something along the lines of: "I have heard of Quantum Physics, and know it is regarded as complex and accurate". It has a reputation beyond those who are experts in it because it is highly regarded and so everyone knows of it even if they've never studied it themselves.

          Whereas the arguments for the existence of God are not well regarded even within philosophy departments. The vast majority of philosophy professors are atheists (there was a survey), yet they will have all studied the famous historical arguments in undergrad, or see some of them trotted out whenever a philosophy-of-religion student or professor gives a departmental seminar, so probably at least once a year they will see an argument presented in some form. Because such arguments are not highly-regarded even within philosophy departments, the rest of the university's academics will know nothing about them, just as failed historical physics theories never make it outside the physics department so most professors in other departments won't know what the 'luminiferous aether' is.

          Few academics in secular disciplines at secular institutions believe in Christianity?
          For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

          Wow, what a surprise.

          By 'secular' I don't mean 'atheist' I mean 'normal' / 'not a special religious university', a standard run-of-the-mill university. And yes, I would say it is 'a surprise' in the sense it is particularly interesting. If you sample the professors at a university you've sampling some of the smartest people in the society who have been given the job of spending their lives in research both to read what others around the world have discovered and make discoveries themselves... so to find that a vast majority of them are atheists, substantially higher in percentage than the general population, is quite an interesting finding.

          Your inane, classless and unprofessional post that I responded to is proof that you're not all that smart.
          So I'm a jerk? I can agree with that.

          How could you actually demonstrate your claim to be true? Go through all the arguments individually and show how each one is "stupid" and how none of them are reasonable.
          Over the last 20 years I've read and reviewed hundreds of different arguments, and think they are all worthless. At a certain point it's reasonable to assume that there's not some Great And Awesome Argument out there somewhere that I just haven't encountered yet, because if there was one that was so great then Christian apologists would have been using it and it would have come to my attention some point in the last 20 years.

          You aren't that smart or wise.
          Well MM does call me Dimbulb.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            In what field(s)?
            The two main ones are masters in sociology/psychology, and a doctorate in philosophy.

            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            We're simply going to disagree about this, then. When he's not emoting all over the place, he comes across as quite intelligent IMO; I'd say he's smarter than I am. You may just not be very adept at evaluating intelligence; I knew a brilliant lawyer who was convinced he'd been killed on the field at Gettysburg in a prior life.
            Well, maybe that's the problem, I haven't seen Dimbulb do anything other than emote all over the place and put up some of the worst arguments against Christianity and worst abuses of scripture I've ever seen.

            However, he does generally write well with proper spelling and punctuation, which is why I judge that he is of average intelligence. Maybe he displays an excellent intellect when discussing his field, but that certainly doesn't carry over into the areas of philosophy, theology, religion, and politics.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
              This coming from the guy whom I once had to link multiple times to a document that had bullet points (about how the APA was adjusting its diagnoses and why) and you still didn't manage to have the reading comprehension to understand what the bullet point said.
              Have a link? Sounds like it might be a fun thread to revisit as there is no doubt in my mind that you are grossly misrepresenting what happened.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                In general, like yourself I value my privacy, and would prefer nothing is said on this forum from private research about me. Though, honestly, why you or anyone else would find me all that interesting baffles me somewhat, and I can assure you that PhD theses are incredibly boring in general and mine is not at all an exception to that rule. I'm neither a public figure nor have led a particularly interesting life beyond being a geek and spending most of my adult life at university.

                Statements I have made about myself publicly on this forum are as far as I feel comfortable in going, and you can copy+paste those to anyone who has questions about me.
                It would be helpful, then, if you would at least inform me via PM in what specific areas I am off-base (i.e., what I have presented which is incorrect) so I can avoid making those mistakes in the future. Otherwise I'll assume you're merely grandstanding, which frankly is not unusual with you. I have no intention of deliberately misrepresenting anyone.

                I read PhD theses because I am also an inveterate geek and find them interesting. I take it as a personal challenge to see how much of the material I can wrap my brain around. I'll probably get around to reading your book, too.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #68
                  There is no reason to pretend that Starlight is stupid because he's on "the other side". That clearly is not the case, though I do find it amusing that he's one of two TWebbers who brags of extreme intelligence, along with Darth Executor.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    There is no reason to pretend that Starlight is stupid because he's on "the other side". That clearly is not the case, though I do find it amusing that he's one of two TWebbers who brags of extreme intelligence, along with Darth Executor.
                    I always thought of him as one of the more intelligent, albeit more misguided, Twebbers.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      There is no reason to pretend that Starlight is stupid because he's on "the other side". That clearly is not the case, though I do find it amusing that he's one of two TWebbers who brags of extreme intelligence, along with Darth Executor.
                      Well D.E. is obviously the 2nd most intelligent TWebber.

                      Honestly I get told I'm stupid here on such a constant basis - it's not unusual to see multiple posts per page alleging that I'm stupid - that I usually do feel a little push-back is in order. Alleging that I'm stupid seems to be the go-to for some posters here when they can't address the substance of the arguments being made.

                      Do I have an overly-high opinion of my own abilities? Sure. Most people generally do. Am I an egotistical jerk? Totally. Am I stupid though? Hardly. So it's weird and amusing to see how often the "you're stupid!" gets trotted out here.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        There is no reason to pretend that Starlight is stupid because he's on "the other side". That clearly is not the case, though I do find it amusing that he's one of two TWebbers who brags of extreme intelligence, along with Darth Executor.
                        I never said he was stupid. I've just never seen anything from him that would make me think he has an even mildly superior intellect.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I always thought of him as one of the more intelligent, albeit more misguided, Twebbers.
                          Considering that his competition are folks like Jimmy, Tassman, and shuny, saying that he's "more intelligent" is a bit of a backhanded compliment.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
                            Well D.E. is obviously the 2nd most intelligent TWebber.

                            Honestly I get told I'm stupid here on such a constant basis - it's not unusual to see multiple posts per page alleging that I'm stupid - that I usually do feel a little push-back is in order. Alleging that I'm stupid seems to be the go-to for some posters here when they can't address the substance of the arguments being made.

                            Do I have an overly-high opinion of my own abilities? Sure. Most people generally do. Am I an egotistical jerk? Totally. Am I stupid though? Hardly. So it's weird and amusing to see how often the "you're stupid!" gets trotted out here.
                            You may not be stupid, but some of the arguments you've presented, especially against Christianity certainly are.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              You may not be stupid, but some of the arguments you've presented, especially against Christianity certainly are.
                              Uh huh. Care to point me to one of the stupidest ones so I can bask in its idiocy?
                              Last edited by Starlight; 04-16-2018, 07:37 PM.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                We can ask "To what extent do the scientists and academics in our world typically take seriously any particular argument regarding the existence of God?"

                                Is there, for example, some well known argument that is acknowledged by all modern thinkers to be utterly compelling, such that it is taught to every student in high school as a matter of course? No.

                                Is there perhaps an argument that is perhaps 50-50 such that it is continually debated by all thinking men throughout the world, and all scientists give thought to daily? No.

                                Is there perhaps an argument that's widely regarded to have about a 10% chance of being right, such that a lot of people give it a heap of credence and so it is widely known? Not really.
                                I'm not sure how saying a bunch of people who aren't particularly 'specialized' in the area aren't particularly aware or or don't debate the subject means anything. I would expect, for example, that astronomers are generally not aware of Keynesian arguments about economics.

                                Also, regardless of their validity, trying to teach any argument in favor of a religion in public high school would get you in immediate trouble with groups like the ACLU.

                                The simple fact is that modern scientists, intellectuals, academics, etc don't consider any of the major apologetic 'arguments' for the truth of Christianity to be worth any particularly serious level of consideration. The only place they are even mentioned in a modern university are in courses labelled "philosophy of religion" where the lecturer will explain to the students the ontological argument, cosmological argument, pascal's wager, the argument from design etc, not because the lecturer considers those remotely compelling or expects the students to do so, but because those are some identifiable historical arguments that were made by certain Christian intellectuals at the time.
                                Generally speaking, I would expect that philosophical arguments would be mostly limited to a philosophy class, sort of like how I'd expect geology would be mostly limited to geology courses.

                                With regard to this sort of thing, it's worth noting that over the 20th century the average IQ massively increased (this observation is known as the Flynn Effect), and this has been attributed to everything from better nutrition to better schooling. A 'very smart' person by today's standards would run circles around historical thinkers who were judged 'very smart' in their own societies. Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.
                                Ignoring the question of how accurate IQ is at actually measuring intelligence to begin with, the premise (the average IQ is higher) does not support the conclusion (the smartest people nowadays are much smarter than the smartest people in the past). This is because for an average to increase, it doesn't matter which of the values that goes into the average increases. The average of 10, 20, and 30 is 20. If I add 10 to the first (making it 20, 20, and 30) I end up with an average of 23.3, and if I add 10 to the last (making it 10, 20, and 40) I also end up with an average of 23.3. In other words, an average increase doesn't inherently reflect an across-the-board increase. After doing a little research, it actually does seem that the gains are primarily among the people on the lower end of the scale, and that increases among the highest IQs has generally been rather small (see here and here for examples). In other words, the smartest people aren't getting smarter, it's the less intelligent people who are making gains. So your premise doesn't support your conclusion at all.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                192 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                428 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                305 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
                                406 responses
                                2,518 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X