Nobody Dies for a Lie

[shunyadragon]

Again, the ex nihilo is theology. We can only scientifically know of our universe as the evidence, nothing prior. And for all our observations it seems to have a finite size and origin.

Again, this does not reflect the current knowledge, cosmological models, and objective verifiable evidence. You stated that models are not evidence. This is true, but even the various versions of BB are models just like the different other models are based on the evidence and math models. No definitive beginning without prior existence has been concluded by the physicists and cosmologists based any of the models.

You are selectively 'arguing from ignorance' and only citing superficially what agrees with you without any knowledge nor background in the science and math involved.

[37818]

Again, this does not reflect the current knowledge, cosmological models, and objective verifiable evidence. You stated that models are not evidence. This is true, but even the various versions of BB are models just like the different other models are based on the evidence and math models. No definitive beginning without prior existence has been concluded by the physicists and cosmologists based any of the models.

You are selectively 'arguing from ignorance' and only citing superficially what agrees with you without any knowledge nor background in the science and math involved.

Models of what cannot be tested physically are metaphysical arguments.

[shunyadragon]

Models of what cannot be tested physically are metaphysical arguments.

Than BB models are metaphysical arguments by your definition.

[Tassman]

What is invisible and omnipresent? The Hebrew's God. Space time. The Hebrew's God is not space time. It was,

BTW, Judeo-Christian thinking which brought about science. Is that not true?

No. Science began with the ancient Greeks and modern science can be said to have originated with Copernicus and Galileo in the West and in the Arab world during the Golden Age of Islam. in the East

Again, the ex nihilo is theology. We can only scientifically know of our universe as the evidence, nothing prior. And for all our observations it seems to have a finite size and origin.

We cannot say that this universe had an absolute beginning, because we do not know what happened during the Planck Epoch. But we know something happened.

[37818]

How many of them are ex nihilo?

No. Science began with the ancient Greeks and modern science can be said to have originated with Copernicus and Galileo in the West and in the Arab world during the Golden Age of Islam. in the East

Oh, so can only be "said to have."

We cannot say that this universe had an absolute beginning, because we do not know what happened during the Planck Epoch. But we know something happened.

Metaphysics.

[37818]

Than BB models are metaphysical arguments by your definition.

What is my definition of metaphysics that you are disagreeing with?

[shunyadragon]

Models of what cannot be tested physically are metaphysical arguments.

All the BB models cannot be tested beyond the hypothetical moment after the expansion began, nor any concept of a physical beginning, therefore all BB models are metaphysical arguments for any sort of beginning.

[shunyadragon]

What is my definition of metaphysics that you are disagreeing with?

I believe you are misusing the concept of a metaphysical whatever. I only say that 'by your definition all models including the BB models are metaphysical.'

All the BB models cannot be tested beyond the hypothetical moments after the expansion began, nor any concept of a physical beginning, therefore all BB models are metaphysical arguments for any sort of beginning just as other models based on your definition. An actual physical beginning cannot be determined by objective verifiable evidence for any BB models.

It is also valid that there are other models such as cyclic models of the universe based on the same data as the different BB models.

[Tassman]

How many of them are ex nihilo?

All of them are. That's what creation myths are. They refer to the beginning of things, whether by the will and act of a transcendent being, by emanation from some ultimate source, or in some other way. There are thousands of them, they're all essentially the same...namely an attempt to explain the origins of the universe in a prescientific age.

Oh, so can only be "said to have."

Copernicus and Galileo et al represent the advent of scientific methodology, which has characterised natural science since their era. It consists of systematic observation, experiment and the testing of hypotheses. This as opposed to metaphysical arguments based upon assumed premises, which was characteristic of the Church of the day.

Metaphysics.

I prefer to regard it as scientific hypotheses because, at least potentially, inductive scientific reasoning based upon existing knowledge may well result in further knowledge.

[37818]

All of them are. That's what creation myths are. They refer to the beginning of things, whether by the will and act of a transcendent being, by emanation from some ultimate source, or in some other way. There are thousands of them, they're all essentially the same...namely an attempt to explain the origins of the universe in a prescientific age.

Name one such myth prior to the Hebrew story which was ex nihilo creation. Give the key citation from that myth.

Copernicus and Galileo et al represent the advent of scientific methodology, which has characterised natural science since their era. It consists of systematic observation, experiment and the testing of hypotheses. This as opposed to metaphysical arguments based upon assumed premises, which was characteristic of the Church of the day.

"To know the mighty works of God, to comprehend His wisdom and majesty and power; to appreciate, in degree, the wonderful workings of His laws, surely all this must be a pleasing and acceptable mode of worship to the Most High, to whom ignorance cannot be more grateful than knowledge." -- Copernicus.

I prefer to regard it as scientific hypotheses because, at least potentially, inductive scientific reasoning based upon existing knowledge may well result in further knowledge.

What science studies are of the natural revelation from God.

[shunyadragon]

Name one such myth prior to the Hebrew story which was ex nihilo creation. Give the key citation from that myth.

[shunyadragon]

Also . . .



The older creation myths of the Sumer, which are described in cuneiform tablets describe creation 'ex nihilo,' and are the source of the creation myths of Genesis including the flood legend. The known text of the Sumer and Vedic myths of Creation are much older then any known Biblical text.

I can go into more detail, but on one point Tassman is in error. Not all Creation myths of ancient cultures propose creation 'ex nihilo.'

[Tassman]

Name one such myth prior to the Hebrew story which was ex nihilo creation. Give the key citation from that myth.

Oh there are lots (not all though as shunya rightly says). E.g. The Genesis Creation story borrowed the creatio ex nihilo themes from Mesopotamian mythology, adapting them to the Israelite god. And in the Egyptian creation stories which are the earliest, there are several. E.g. Atum, the source of all the elements and forces in the world, was a self-engendered god,

"To know the mighty works of God, to comprehend His wisdom and majesty and power; to appreciate, in degree, the wonderful workings of His laws, surely all this must be a pleasing and acceptable mode of worship to the Most High, to whom ignorance cannot be more grateful than knowledge." -- Copernicus.

What science studies are of the natural revelation from God.

Really! Give the key citation from that myth of divine revelation.

[37818]

Oh there are lots (not all though as shunya rightly says). E.g. The Genesis Creation story borrowed the creatio ex nihilo themes from Mesopotamian mythology, adapting them to the Israelite god. And in the Egyptian creation stories which are the earliest, there are several. E.g. Atum, the source of all the elements and forces in the world, was a self-engendered god,

Ah, no. The Hebrew account is an refutation, being the ex nihilo claim.


They are theists. It was there theism which lead them into their science.

Really! Give the key citation from that myth of divine revelation.

Not myth. Paul wrote to the Roman church that faith comes from natural revelation, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ." Citing the 19th Psalm. ". . . Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. . . ."

[Tassman]

Ah, no. The Hebrew account is an refutation, being the ex nihilo claim.

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.prem...from-1.5404560

They are theists. It was there theism which lead them into their science.

It was the theists that opposed their science.

Not myth. Paul wrote to the Roman church that faith comes from natural revelation, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ." Citing the 19th Psalm. ". . . Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. . . ."

Why would I accept this as authoritative in any way?