Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Nobody Dies for a Lie

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Again . . . None of the physicists and Cosmologists propose that the beginning of our universe is a finite beginning.
    And their evidence is?
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      So the ancient Hebrews did not worship an invisible deity whose Hebrew Name means the "Existent?"
      Whatever deity the Hebrews worshipped is irrelevant, it was not based upon substantiated evidence.

      So are you saying a metaphysical hypotheses being made in the name of physical science is therefore no longer metaphysical?
      I'm not saying that at all. Scientific hypotheses are predictions made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation. It is the scientific investigation that differentiates them from metaphysical arguments.
      Last edited by Tassman; 06-18-2018, 12:35 AM.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Models are not the evidence. There is only evidence for a finite and temporal universe.
        What preceded the existing "finite and temporal universe" is not known, because before the first 10-44 seconds of the Universe (i.e. the so-called Planck Epoch), the laws of physics as we know them break down. This is not to say that there was nothing, in fact there's mathematical evidence that there was something.

        Metaphysical theories which make models are still metaphysical.
        There are no discoveries to be made which are not open to the methods of science, yet accessible from pure academic reasoning.
        Last edited by Tassman; 06-18-2018, 12:36 AM.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          And their evidence is?
          Again . . . None of the physicists and Cosmologists propose that the beginning of our universe is a finite beginning.

          What are your qualifications to make these assertions based on a religious agenda.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Again . . . None of the physicists and Cosmologists propose that the beginning of our universe is a finite beginning.
            Infinite and eternal are metaphysical in that they cannot be physically measured.
            What are your qualifications to make these assertions based on a religious agenda.
            What are the specific assertions you are referring to? Do I need some kind of qualifications to ask what the evidence might be?
            Last edited by 37818; 06-18-2018, 07:58 AM.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              What preceded the existing "finite and temporal universe" is not known, because before the first 10-44 seconds of the Universe (i.e. the so-called Planck Epoch), the laws of physics as we know them break down. This is not to say that there was nothing, in fact there's mathematical evidence that there was something.
              Ah, mathematical evidence. Information and intelligence.


              There are no discoveries to be made which are not open to the methods of science, yet accessible from pure academic reasoning.
              What are the methods of science that deal with metaphysical?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                What are the methods of science that deal with metaphysical?
                There is not any objective verifiable evidence to justify a theorem nor hypothesis for the metaphysical. There for science does not deal with the metaphysical.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  What are the specific assertions you are referring to? Do I need some kind of qualifications to ask what the evidence might be?
                  The assertion that there is evidence for a finite temporal universe.

                  What are your qualifications to [understand the evidence] and make these assertions based on a religious agenda.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    Ah, mathematical evidence. Information and intelligence.
                    Whatever that means!

                    Again, you are not in a position to claim that the universe had an absolute beginning ex nihilo because we cannot know, at this stage, what happened during the Planck Epoch when the laws of physics as we know them break down.

                    What are the methods of science that deal with metaphysical?
                    Science does not deal with the metaphysical; this is the role of philosophy.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      Whatever that means!
                      You argued claiming mathematical evidence.
                      Again, you are not in a position to claim that the universe had an absolute beginning ex nihilo because we cannot know, at this stage, what happened during the Planck Epoch when the laws of physics as we know them break down.
                      Two issues here. One, to believe God, ex nililo (Genesis 1:1). And secondly, mathematical theory which breaks down with division by zero in the equations used. Like in 1/sqr(1 - 2GM/(rc2)) and the like.


                      Science does not deal with the metaphysical; this is the role of philosophy.
                      Yeah.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        The assertion that there is evidence for a finite temporal universe.

                        What are your qualifications to [understand the evidence] and make these assertions based on a religious agenda.


                        I may not have the qualifications you think I need.

                        I am not the only person who is going to read alleged evidence posted here.

                        I do know what is infinite and eternal cannot be measured.

                        [BTW, what is the mass of an electron on an event horizon?]
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          I may not have the qualifications you think I need.

                          I am not the only person who is going to read alleged evidence posted here.

                          I do know what is infinite and eternal cannot be measured.

                          [BTW, what is the mass of an electron on an event horizon?]
                          Do NOT change the subject. There is no evidence for a finite temporal universe. At present it is an unanswered question whether our physical existence is temporal and finite, or infinite and eternal. There is no evidence that determines or could falsify a hypothesis for either.

                          Your sarcasm and religious agenda predispose you to reject the conclusions of Physicists and Cosmologists far more qualified than either conclusion.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Two issues here. One, to believe God, ex nililo (Genesis 1:1).
                            Why would one believe man-made myths deriving from the Bronze Age in lieu of scientific evidence?

                            And secondly, mathematical theory which breaks down with division by zero in the equations used. Like in 1/sqr(1 - 2GM/(rc2)) and the like.
                            How is this in any way a response to the FACT that we are not in a position to claim that the universe had an absolute beginning ex nihilo at this stage, because we do not know what happened during the Planck Epoch when the laws of physics break down. It remains an open question.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Do NOT change the subject. There is no evidence for a finite temporal universe. At present it is an unanswered question whether our physical existence is temporal and finite, or infinite and eternal. There is no evidence that determines or could falsify a hypothesis for either.

                              Your sarcasm and religious agenda predispose you to reject the conclusions of Physicists and Cosmologists far more qualified than either conclusion.
                              There is only the evidence of our universe being finite and temporal. What would the evidence be otherwise? Point it out.
                              Two facts about the universe if its perceived expansion is ran backwards. Its finite size and finite time.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                Why would one believe man-made myths deriving from the Bronze Age in lieu of scientific evidence?
                                What is invisible and omnipresent? The Hebrew's God. Space time. The Hebrew's God is not space time. It was, BTW, Judeo-Christian thinking which brought about science. Is that not true?


                                How is this in any way a response to the FACT that we are not in a position to claim that the universe had an absolute beginning ex nihilo at this stage, because we do not know what happened during the Planck Epoch when the laws of physics break down. It remains an open question.
                                Again, the ex nihilo is theology. We can only scientifically know of our universe as the evidence, nothing prior. And for all our observations it seems to have a finite size and origin.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                176 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                426 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
                                406 responses
                                2,510 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X