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Nobody Dies for a Lie

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    That you believe it, doesn't make it true.

    That you believe there's no God doesn't make it true.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      That you believe there's no God doesn't make it true.
      No doubt about it, just because we believe something doesn't make it true. So your assertion that once a christian always a christian is not necessarily so, and all of the many ex-christians believe differently.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        Of course you will mock and denigrate scripture for your own ends.
        How about I mock and denigrate you rather than scripture, by pointing out how arrogantly you come across by trying to tell me and others what was and wasn't in my heart. You think you have some sort of right, to say to and about someone you don't know very well at all, what was and wasn't the truth about their innermost feelings and commitments and beliefs? Jerk. You have absolutely no business to be pronouncing your telepathic knowledge of my historical heart. It's incredibly insulting to me, and incredibly arrogant of you.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          How about I mock and denigrate you rather than scripture, by pointing out how arrogantly you come across by trying to tell me and others what was and wasn't in my heart. You think you have some sort of right, to say to and about someone you don't know very well at all, what was and wasn't the truth about their innermost feelings and commitments and beliefs? Jerk. You have absolutely no business to be pronouncing your telepathic knowledge of my historical heart. It's incredibly insulting to me, and incredibly arrogant of you.

          I have a right to judge you by God's standards. And that I have done.

          You can deny all you want, but you are dead wrong. Do I care that I've insulted you? No. No more than you care when you insult my beliefs and my God.


          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            MM, I REALLY think you would benefit from a logic course. The definition does not include "only," you added that. It simply says "appears to." Which means it might actually transcend the laws of nature, or it might appear to but actually not. That might be because it is adhering to a law of nature we have not yet discovered, or because there is an "illusion" at work. For example, the illusionist who makes an object "float" in the air "appears to be" transcending the "theory of gravity." In reality, there is an illusion at work and the laws of nature have not been transcended.

            And BTW, it's not "my definition." It was cut/paste from Merriam Webster. I neglected to include this link.



            On this one, you are correct. "Unusual" and "implausible" are not the same concept (though they are often confused). Something that is unusual is not necessarily supernatural. After all, it is unusual for my father-in-law to win the lottery. If he does, it would hardly be considered supernatural, which is why the definition goes on to note "especially those that appear to transcend the laws of nature."

            In general, MM, something that is "supernatural," in my book, is something that defies the normal operation of the universe. So turning water into wine is "supernatural" unless you take the usual approach of passing it through a grapevine, squeezing the grapes, and fermenting the results. Likewise, "raising someone from the dead" is supernatural, unless we are talking about resuscitating someone who is well within the bounds of resuscitation.



            So the first half of your statement is wrong, but the second half is correct. I will always lean towards a naturalistic explanation, unless someone can show that there is no such possible explanation. I take that position on the basis of the criteria I have already listed. But if someone can show the latter, then I will accept a supernatural explanation and re-evaluate my position as a consequence.
            You're so used to twisting language that you have difficulty parsing even a straight-forward piece of logic. But this isn't about logic anyway but linguistics. The phrase "so as to appear to" means in appearance only. For example, "An illusionist uses sleight of hand so as to appear to make a coin vanish into thin air," or "carpe twists language and employs tortured logic so as to appear to be correct." Like I said, the definition doesn't help you.

            Anyway, the only reason you think that things like raising someone from the dead or turning water into wine transcends the laws of nature is because you don't understand the natural processes at work, but that doesn't mean they're implausible or didn't happen - you're just appealing to ignorance and incredulity, an ironic gaffe from someone telling me that I need a course in logic.

            What about a man with atrophied limbs having them spontaneously restored to full health? Does that transcend the laws of nature? You will have to insist it does or you will be forced to concede that the Bible records genuinely plausible miracles with Jesus causing the lame to walk and the blind to see, and yet lizards regrow their tails, and the Turritopsis dohrnii, a species of jellyfish, is effectively biologically immortal without transcending the laws of nature. Just because we don't understand how something works in nature doesn't mean that it violates the laws of nature. It just means it's a natural process that we don't understand.

            But you are committed to rejecting this line of reasoning before the debate even begins, because allowing that even a single miracle recorded in the Bible is plausible will cause your entire worldview to come crashing down around your ears.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              I believe that scripture is clear that God holds fast those who belong to Him. Here, among other places:

              .

              Romans 8.

              And 1 John 2:19:
              There's also the parable of the sower, where some seed appeared to thrive for a time but eventually withered because it had no root.
              Last edited by Mountain Man; 04-18-2018, 09:09 PM.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Since the NT wasn't written until decades after the events that were recorded in the bible, then recording the later lives of the disciples wouldn't have been recording future histories. In other words, what were the disciples, the supposed witnesses of all the NT claims, what were they doing during the 40 years between the time of the resurrection and the writing of the NT?
                I already answered this - Scripture isn't a history text. It was written with purpose - which is why we see varying themes in the Epistles. The Apostles were concerned with telling others about Christ and how to live as His follower - they were not writing for the purpose of recording their own lives.

                Read one of Hawkings' books - then from that only, try to glean what he was doing in his personal life at the time of the writing. he may actually have left some passing references that would help but since his purpose in writing was not to record his personal life, you won't find a great deal of information. Nor should you expect to - it's the same thing.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

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                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  An ironic comment, given the discussions in other threads about people's misuse of "evidence" and "proof"



                  Which is exactly what I said..



                  I agree with most of this, but I would be careful about "facts." That is the core of the problem. Many of the things called "facts" by those making the arguments that the Resurrection is "proven" I see as claims - not facts. It is why I do not see the resurrection as "proven." I believe most of these claims have not themselves shown to be solid.



                  Can you point to the place where you think I said otherwise?



                  I would say it is a testament to the beliefs of the authors of the various works.



                  I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.



                  It's not clear to me where you think this occurred.
                  Look at the post I responded to - you did ALL of that. You SPECIFICALLY cast doubt on whether or not it (Apostolic martyrdom) is evidence.
                  Last edited by Teallaura; 04-19-2018, 12:35 AM.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

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                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    And nobody did die for something they knew was a lie. Apparently after the supposed resurrection and until (some 40 years) the NT was written, the disciples just disappeared from history.
                    Jim, there are extra-Biblical mentions of the Apostles - and the NT does tells us something about what they were doing (which is why we can map Paul's journeys). You're making untrue assertions - you may be convinced they are true, but the evidence does not support you.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

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                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Then what happened to the disciples for the next 40 years after the death and supposed resurrection, when the NT was actually written?
                      Peter spent a good bit of time in Jerusalem and Israel - he met with Paul there at least twice. James also met with Paul. Paul traveled all over the Mediterranean. We know those things from Scripture - the apostles don't just drop out of history. their lives aren't recorded as history or canon - but that wasn't their purpose. So no, we don't know what Andrew and Levi were doing when Paul was on the way to Damascus - but it's a non-issue. What we do know is that Christianity began to grow - which means live people had to have been doing missionary work. Since tradition and extra=Biblical sources support this being done by the Apostles it's irrational to assume otherwise.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

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                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Well, actually the resurrection is the least probable and that the supernatural is implausible should be everyone's most reasonable a priori assumption.
                        No, it isn't. This conclusion can only be reached fallaciously.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

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                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          I think this ignores a huge number of other possibilities.
                          It does ignore unicorns, that's true. Skipping irrational 'possibilities' that do not fit the evidence is sound procedure - accepting any and all 'possibilities' in order to retain a favored position is unsound procedure. You can chase unicorns if you like - but you cannot retain the claim of rational assessment of the evidence when you do.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

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                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            OK, so it matters what "ideology" means to you.
                            ...
                            No, it does NOT. He is asking you to defend your own premise that: "Would a person die for something they think is untrue, but the results of it they believe are honorable and good for humanity? I think that is possible. "
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

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                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Documented, where? The NT ends with the ascension, but that isn't written about until decades later, yet there is nothing recorded about the whereabouts or the doings of the disciples in those decades. That should tell you something. It was just a story, a fiction, that ended with the ascension, at which point the fiction of the disciples ended as well.
                              Jim, seriously, have you even bothered to read the Bible at all? The Gospels are the only things that don't go further than the Ascension (not all of them cover that) - the Book of Acts goes very much into early church history. The Epistles do make reference to the doings of the Apostles - this is utterly untrue.

                              Myths don't arise in the short time frame from the event to the first known written recording of Scripture - thirty to fifty years isn't enough time for that. The Epistles are written to various churches - the idea that Christianity sprang whole cloth from a later writing is irrational - and it's also extremely poor procedure to dismiss oral narratives in a pre-literate society. Most Epistles are public letters - they are written to be read to a group, not as correspondence to an individual. That makes no sense if the Gospel narratives are unknown to the hearers.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

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                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                What I mean is that, in my opinion, the biblical story is a fiction, and because it is fiction you never hear about the desciples again after the narrative ends with the ascension. Why? Because they were not real, they were fictional characters.


                                Your opinion is not based in fact. That's up to you if you want to base your opinions that way - but understand that baseless assertions are not compelling reasons for anyone to agree with you.

                                The narrative does not end with the Ascension - Acts continues the recounting of subsequent events. The Apostles DO NOT disappear from the NT - they are WRITING parts of it!

                                And that's without discussing extra-Biblical accounts. The 'Christ Myth' theory that this appears to derive from is itself a myth.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

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