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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

    It may well be an eternal, infinite universe.
    No physical evidence. That is a metaphysical argument. Such a universe requires an uncaused existence for it to be such.


    This is, as I said, 'proof by bald assertion', i.e. an informal fallacy.
    Uncaused Existence is the fundamental identity for God, by reason an uncaused existence needs no God. Your rejection of that concept is as much a bald assertion and an informational fallacy as a fallacy of ignorance. You need to disallow the primary viable identity for God.


    Yes, the infinite, eternal universe.
    Again, no evidence. That is a metaphysical argument.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      No physical evidence. That is a metaphysical argument. Such a universe requires an uncaused existence for it to be such.


      Uncaused Existence is the fundamental identity for God, by reason an uncaused existence needs no God. Your rejection of that concept is as much a bald assertion and an informational fallacy as a fallacy of ignorance. You need to disallow the primary viable identity for God.


      Again, no evidence. That is a metaphysical argument.
      The thing is, is that we have evidence of a universe, a material world, regardless of whether we can determine that it's uncaused, eternal and infinite or not. There is no evidence of anything else.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        The thing is, is that we have evidence of a universe, a material world, regardless of whether we can determine that it's uncaused, eternal and infinite or not. There is no evidence of anything else.
        Yes, the universe is physical evidence. The physical evidence is the universe is not eternal nor infinite. But as to the universe being eternal and infinite those remain metaphysical questions.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          Yes, the universe is physical evidence. The physical evidence is the universe is not eternal nor infinite. But as to the universe being eternal and infinite those remain metaphysical questions.
          There is no physical evidence that has demonstrated that our physical existence is either finite and temporal nor infinite and eternal.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            There is no physical evidence that has demonstrated that our physical existence is either finite and temporal nor infinite and eternal.
            There is evidence for the observable universe. Finite having an origin.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Yes, the universe is physical evidence. The physical evidence is the universe is not eternal nor infinite.
              There is no definitive evidence either way. But we demonstrably have a visable universe as opposed to your conjecture of an "uncaused existence" that you want to call god.

              But as to the universe being eternal and infinite those remain metaphysical questions.
              No they are not, they are scientific hypotheses.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                There is evidence for the observable universe. Finite having an origin.
                No there is not. There are a number of cosmological models that fit the evidence, and some indicate the possibility of an eternal universe. Some point to the possibility of our universe beginning as a singularity, but this singularity is not definitive evidence of an absolute beginning. Again, even in these models it is unknown what took place prior to the singularity, and only described in different cosmological models.

                Based on the present scientific evidence it remains a possibility that our physical existence is eternal.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  No there is not. There are a number of cosmological models that fit the evidence, and some indicate the possibility of an eternal universe. Some point to the possibility of our universe beginning as a singularity, but this singularity is not definitive evidence of an absolute beginning. Again, even in these models it is unknown what took place prior to the singularity, and only described in different cosmological models.

                  Based on the present scientific evidence it remains a possibility that our physical existence is eternal.
                  So are you saying the dating the beginning of the universe as 13.7 billion years ago is a lie with no evidence at all?
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    There is no definitive evidence either way. But we demonstrably have a visable universe as opposed to your conjecture of an "uncaused existence" that you want to call god.
                    So the ancient Hebrews did not worship an invisible deity whose Hebrew Name means the "Existent?"


                    No they are not, they are scientific hypotheses.
                    So are you saying a metaphysical hypotheses being made in the name of physical science is therefore no longer metaphysical?
                    Last edited by 37818; 06-16-2018, 10:42 AM.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      So are you saying the dating the beginning of the universe as 13.7 billion years ago is a lie with no evidence at all?
                      No, he's saying that the beginning of what we call our universe, the 13.7 billion years or so ago, is simply the point beyond which we have no access. Lets say you yourself began to exist, were born, 40 years ago, and that you had no access to, there was no evidence of, no history of, anything prior to your existence. That wouldn't mean, wouldn't be evidence of, there being no past, it would simply mean you have no access to know one way or the other. So we hypothesize. Some people conclude that the universe came about just like everything else they observe came about, it is an extension of, and was born from out of, that which pre-existed it, and others conclude that it was created out of nothing by a supernatural force which pre-existed it. The difference is in the evidence. We have no evidence of the supernatural, and no evidence that anything can come from nothing, or be created out of nothing.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        There is evidence for the observable universe. Finite having an origin.
                        No there is not. You are make assertions of the nature of our physical existence without any objective evidence,
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-16-2018, 02:18 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          No there is not. You are make assertions of the nature of our physical existence without any objective evidence,
                          Again, are you claiming that the 13.7 billion years ago origin our universe professed by some scientists has no evidence what so ever?
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Again, are you claiming that the 13.7 billion years ago origin our universe professed by some scientists has no evidence what so ever?
                            Yes, because there are a number of different models that describe the origins of our universe including cyclic models, and none of the proposed models for the origins of the universe, including those that our universe began as singularity propose that this is any sort of absolute beginning of anything. None of the physicists and Cosmologists propose that the beginning of our universe is a finite beginning.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Yes, because there are a number of different models that describe the origins of our universe including cyclic models, and none of the proposed models for the origins of the universe, including those that our universe began as singularity propose that this is any sort of absolute beginning of anything. None of the physicists and Cosmologists propose that the beginning of our universe is a finite beginning.
                              Models are not the evidence. There is only evidence for a finite and temporal universe. Metaphysical theories which make models are still metaphysical.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Models are not the evidence. There is only evidence for a finite and temporal universe. Metaphysical theories which make models are still metaphysical.
                                Again . . . None of the physicists and Cosmologists propose that the beginning of our universe is a finite beginning.

                                What are your qualifications other than assertions based on a religious agenda.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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