Nobody Dies for a Lie

[Sparko]

...and we're back to investing not necessarily including interviewing eyewitnesses.

and we are back to you nitpicking everything to extreme literalness and refusing to read between the lines. If Luke traveled with Paul and if you read Acts you will notice he would have also met the various disciples and apostles Paul did, and he was indeed there "from the beginning" that he would have had met and talked to eyewitnesses.

[Roy]

And James was not an original eyewitnesses?

An excellent question, which you didn't provide an answer for. What does Luke say about him?

[seer]

An excellent question, which you didn't provide an answer for. What does Luke say about him?

That he and and Paul visited James and all the elders in Jerusalem.

[Roy]

And James was not an original eyewitnesses?

An excellent question, which you didn't provide an answer for. What does Luke say about him?

That he and and Paul visited James and all the elders in Jerusalem.

Which doesn't tell us whether James was an original eyewitness, but does tell us that seer is a dishonest gutless schmuck.

[seer]

Which doesn't tell us whether James was an original eyewitness, but does tell us that seer is a dishonest gutless schmuck.

What a little puke you are Roy. And what James is this Roy? We know that Paul met James the Lord's brother in Jerusalem Galatians 1:18-20. Unless you don't believe that Christ's brother was an eyewitness.

[carpedm9587]

Ah I have found your "sources" Carp.

1. Your link to life expectancy us someone's blog. That is like me quoting Mountain Man as a source and expecting you to believe it.

That was one link - the easier one to read. Because it was a blog, I also linked a peer-reviewed paper.



As you wish...

[Starlight]

Unless you don't believe that Christ's brother was an eyewitness.

The gospels imply that Jesus's family were almost completely absent from his ministry. IIRC the popular later idea was that James was like Paul - initially against Jesus and converted by a resurrection appearance. So James wouldn't have been an eyewitness to much of Jesus' ministry or even death.

[rogue06]

The gospels imply that Jesus's family were almost completely absent from his ministry. IIRC the popular later idea was that James was like Paul - initially against Jesus and converted by a resurrection appearance. So James wouldn't have been an eyewitness to much of Jesus' ministry or even death.

Based on Matthew 20:21; Mark 15:40-41 and John 19:25 it is conceivable that the apostles James and John were cousins of Jesus.

[Terraceth]

Life expectancy from the age of the bible to the 1700s didn't change all that much: 35-40 years.

Your source admits the numbers are conjecture and also doesn't indicate whether it's counting infants. Based on looking at information regarding this on other sites, the 35-40 seems to be including those who die at young ages. This is problematic for determining how old people, once past their youth, would live, due to the high infant mortality rate screwing things up.

For example, I looked at the average lifespan of Benjamin Franklin and his 14 siblings (the source you cite claims lifespans were fairly stagnant until the 19th and 20th centuries so this was before they rose). Their average lifespan was a rather low 36 years. However, four of them didn't even make it to the age of 6. If we don't count those, then their average lifespan is increased to 49, with the earliest death being at the age of 35, the proposed average. In fact, two of them (including Benjamin) lived to be over 80! This showcases the effect that infant deaths can have in skewing lifespan averages and how they must be removed in order to find out how long the typical adult would live to be.

As long as I'm on the subject of founding fathers, an amusing note: John Adams, the second president, lived to be 90 years old. Want to know how long it took for that title of "oldest-living president" to be taken away from him? (note I am referring to how long they lived period, not their age when assuming the presidency) It was nearly two centuries later, with Gerald Ford, though Herbert Hoover admittedly did come close. Sure, John Adams was obviously a particularly long-lived individual for his time period. But it certainly shows how even during time periods when the average lifespan was around 35-40, people could outlive the majority of people in today's world, to the point it took nearly two centuries to elect someone who ended up living a longer life.

There are several sources that attest to this.

Well, it's behind a paywall so I can't view it. But the abstract note indicates that the hard data regarding lifespans at the time is "rather disappointing" which indicates uncertainty regarding the low lifespan people ascribe to it.

[seer]

The gospels imply that Jesus's family were almost completely absent from his ministry. IIRC the popular later idea was that James was like Paul - initially against Jesus and converted by a resurrection appearance. So James wouldn't have been an eyewitness to much of Jesus' ministry or even death.

Nonsense, James knew his brother and what he was up to, he knew his brother died and met the risen Jesus.

[Rational Gaze]

Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.

False. Isaac Newton.

[mossrose]

False. Isaac Newton.

Isaac probably wasn't as humble as SL, though.......

[seer]

False. Isaac Newton.

Let's not forget:

[rogue06]

Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.

The Dawkins Delusion?

Or John Polkinghorne the theoretical physicist, theologian and Anglican priest?

Or Michael J. Reiss, Professor of Science Education at the Institute of Education, University of London, where he is Assistant Director, Research and Development, President of the International Society for Science and Religion and the International Association for Science and Religion in Schools, Visiting Professor at the Universities of Leeds and York, and an Anglican priest?

Or Richard Swinburne, Emeritus Professor of Philosophy at the University of Oxford and one of the most influential English philosophers of religion of the 20th century?

If that doesn't suffice I can add a couple dozen more names including a couple of Nobel laureates (Physics) if need be.

[One Bad Pig]

The gospels imply that Jesus's family were almost completely absent from his ministry. IIRC the popular later idea was that James was like Paul - initially against Jesus and converted by a resurrection appearance. So James wouldn't have been an eyewitness to much of Jesus' ministry or even death.

In an era where everyone knew everybody's business, Jesus' family was very likely cognizant of his doings whether or not a family member was actually present. The gospels barely mention Jesus' family during his ministry, but that hardly means they were not present; you're arguing from silence. Your point regarding the conversion of James likewise does not require his earlier absence; James (according to Paul) was one of those Jesus appeared to after his resurrection, which could explain his conversion regardless of how familiar James was with Jesus' ministry. Jesus' family was with the apostles at Pentecost; it's rather unlikely they were there as inquisitive bystanders.