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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostOn the contrary; an incorrect perception is the least probable/plausible given the biblical texts. You're free to throw (portions) of those out, but then we're back to lying.
Meanwhile, I live in a world where "supernatural occurrences" are regularly debunked, and often a con of one sort or another. I live in a world with multiple differing religions, all with supernatural claims and all refuting the claims of the other religions. I live in a world with no adequate evidence that any form of deity exists. And I live in a world where most definitions of "god" contain implicit contradictions that are either ignored, or simply accepted as "true" despite the inherently contradictory nature of the claims. Meanwhile, the history of how we derived religions in the first place is pretty well laid out.
I put that all together, and I conclude the early martyrs died for their faith, but not because their faith in Jesus as "son of god" was justified. Jesus of Nazareth was an itinerant preacher in the ancient near east who had a unique view on Judaism, and initiated a cult that would probably have faded into obscurity were it not for a few incredibly charismatic preachers, most notably Saul of Tarsus.
That is what I believe. I know many here believe otherwise, and that is fine. Religions have been around for a long time, they serve some good purposes, and generally do more good than ill (I think). That may be changing, but I think it is reasonably historically sound. I suspect they will eventually fade away, but not in my lifetime.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostConcerning the life of Jesus, and the historical accuracy of the claims, I think we have a lot more possibilities than this. We have memory effects. We have psychological effects. We have historical errors due to the time-gap between reporting and recording. We have pride effects. We have the reality that we have no original works of these texts and that period. The list goes on and on and on. The opportunity for error and misunderstanding to creep into the story is enormous.
Meanwhile, I live in a world where "supernatural occurrences" are regularly debunked, and often a con of one sort or another.
I live in a world with multiple differing religions, all with supernatural claims and all refuting the claims of the other religions.
I live in a world with no adequate evidence that any form of deity exists.
And I live in a world where most definitions of "god" contain implicit contradictions that are either ignored, or simply accepted as "true" despite the inherently contradictory nature of the claims.
Meanwhile, the history of how we derived religions in the first place is pretty well laid out.
Religions have been around for a long time, they serve some good purposes, and generally do more good than ill (I think). That may be changing, but I think it is reasonably historically sound. I suspect they will eventually fade away, but not in my lifetime.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYet as I examine these possibilities, close examination renders them more and more implausible. The change between "our leader died, and now our hopes have been crushed" and "our leader rose again, conquering death and vindicating our hopes" is not small. The time gap between the events and the recording of those events is rather too short for significant change to creep in - especially when the message has been widespread along with the admonition (given within two decades of Jesus' ministry) to not accept anything contrary to what had been taught.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostDoes that give you carte blanche to reject all "supernatural occurrences"?
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostSure, some of them are faked. Have you read Craig Keener's Miracles? Orthodoxy has been interesting. It's been said that some saints could read the thoughts of others - not an easy idea to swallow, but I've had three people relate wholly independent instances where that happened to them/in their presence. Myrrh-streaming icons have been faked, but I've seen a couple where that would be rather difficult to accomplish - and in any case, there are attendant miracles of healing, childbirth after that had been medically ruled out, etc.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostTherefore they're all wrong.
Yes, I believe the wide variation in religions, and they continual tendency to fragment, is an indication that there is no underlying unifying reality. Either that, or god is the most inept being I've ever encountered at making him/her/itself known. For an omnipotent, omniscient, supernatural being, that is an odd "skill."
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostPerhaps your evidentiary bar is set overly high.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYeah, not interested in you carpesplaining 'god'.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI find it to be rather a case of wishful thinking. I'm not all that impressed the the ReligionsGeschichtliche Schule, which in any case is not nearly as in vogue nowadays.
I wasn't actually talking about the bible, though I do think all religions contain common themes for a reason. I was thinking more of how it is the human species derived religions to begin with. What purpose they served and how they came to be so widespread.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou're far from the first to prophesy the end of religion.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWell, I have to admit my church history studies are more than three decades behind me, but I seem to recall that there was extra-scriptural confirming evidence for at least some of those deaths. We do know a LOT of early Christian's were martyred, but the ones that are usually pointed to as "proof" that Jesus was resurrected and was god were the deaths of the original 12 apostles themselves. The argument was that they were witnesses to the events, so they would have known it was true/untrue.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostHow could you NOT know that Christianity thinks homosexual behavior is a sin?
It says it in the bible in several places
My local churches chose the path of never mentioning the topic of homosexuality, presumably to avoid controversy, and when the issue of civil unions came up the Christian denominations in my country were generally supportive. So it took me by surprise when the issue of same sex marriages came up and there was a sudden fervor of anti-gay sentiment and strong public outcry from Christians against gay rights both here and around the world. Going by the gradual acceptance of it by various Christian denominations as well as general population polling, it looks like in 20-50 years there'll be universal acceptance and endorsement of it, which was more the reaction I was expecting from Christian groups.
and has been a historically held view for over 2000 years (more if you count Judaism)Last edited by Starlight; 04-17-2018, 08:32 PM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by element771 View PostAm I the only politically liberal orthodox Christian on TWeb?
Does that mean that I am stupid now?"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by TheWall View PostWhy no mention of Ap or Mr Holding? Or for that matter Rumtum.
They are some of the smartest people here."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSure, it's no secret that people, who for whatever reason, have come to believe in a particular god, will martyr themselves for the cause.
Although when it comes to Jesus, any evidence of any of his immediate followers dying for their beliefs is actually pretty 3rd-hand. Nowhere in the Bible do any of the disciples die for their beliefs. Although in later centuries there's plenty of martyrdom accounts of Christians who had never met Jesus. As well as relatively unverifiable and seemingly ridiculous claims about the alleged martyrdom of the disciples (e.g. Peter being crucified upside down).
The Bible in fact has almost nothing to say about what those who knew Jesus during his life went on to do (other than the book of Acts noting that they ran a commune in Jerusalem). The focus is on Paul who's sum total direct interaction with Jesus was in a vision. There is actually nothing in the bible about the 12 disciples who knew Jesus and allegedly saw his resurrection being inspired to subsequently to do anything at all particularly great or to die for the cause or anything like that. All of them except Peter are more notable by their absence from subsequent biblical events rather than their resurrection-motivated presence in them."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostI'm smarter than everybody here.
We can know this by observing the fact that nobody else shares my enthusiasm for Grand Sumo (aka the greatest sport ever)."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThen I think you have not been looking. I have encountered MANY who claim that the martyrdom of the apostles is proof that the claims about Jesus are true (resurrection, miracles, etc.) because "no one would die for a lie." Evidence, maybe. Proof? No. There are simply too many other credible (IMO) possibilities.
However, it's asinine to question whether or not evidence directly pertaining to witness reliability is in fact evidence - of course it is. It's not direct evidence of the Resurrection - it IS direct evidence of the reliability of the eye witness testimony of those claiming to have witnessed the Resurrected Christ. How you could possibly have a 'credible' explanation of their subsequent martyrdom other than they genuinely believed what they were saying, I can't imagine - all the possibilities I've ever heard expounded were between highly improbably and outright silly.
The OP and this post indicate that you really do not understand the argument and that you don't understand evidence any better than those you were criticizing.If you cannot differentiate between supporting evidence (which is what this is) and direct evidence then one wonders how well you've evaluated all the other evidence you so readily dismiss.
It's fine to use your own standards of evidence for your own purposes - it is NOT fine to use substandard standards in the process of debating - and especially not of attempting to convince."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThere are so many other religions and cults that people fervently believe in and die for even today. There was the mass suicide of Heaven's Gate cult members in 1997, there was Sathya Sai Baba who died in 2011 but whos followers are convinced he is divine and did miracles, there were the Mormons who followed Joseph Smith, the Muslims who followed Muhammed etc. The world is neither short on religious leaders nor credulous beliefs willing to have complete faith and fight and even die for their beliefs.
Although when it comes to Jesus, any evidence of any of his immediate followers dying for their beliefs is actually pretty 3rd-hand. Nowhere in the Bible do any of the disciples die for their beliefs. Although in later centuries there's plenty of martyrdom accounts of Christians who had never met Jesus. As well as relatively unverifiable and seemingly ridiculous claims about the alleged martyrdom of the disciples (e.g. Peter being crucified upside down).
The Bible in fact has almost nothing to say about what those who knew Jesus during his life went on to do (other than the book of Acts noting that they ran a commune in Jerusalem). The focus is on Paul who's sum total direct interaction with Jesus was in a vision. There is actually nothing in the bible about the 12 disciples who knew Jesus and allegedly saw his resurrection being inspired to subsequently to do anything at all particularly great or to die for the cause or anything like that. All of them except Peter are more notable by their absence from subsequent biblical events rather than their resurrection-motivated presence in them.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWho says it has to be knowingly?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWell, I have to admit my church history studies are more than three decades behind me, but I seem to recall that there was extra-scriptural confirming evidence for at least some of those deaths. We do know a LOT of early Christian's were martyred, but the ones that are usually pointed to as "proof" that Jesus was resurrected and was god were the deaths of the original 12 apostles themselves. The argument was that they were witnesses to the events, so they would have known it was true/untrue."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
Comment
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostOn the contrary; an incorrect perception is the least probable/plausible given the biblical texts. You're free to throw (portions) of those out, but then we're back to lying.
Roy's mockery is entirely a scenario built on silence, and so doesn't even merit consideration."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
Comment
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