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Thread: Nobody Dies for a Lie

  1. #21
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    All the arguments for Christian theism are stupid.

    None of them are reasonable. None of them are 'close' to right. None of them should be taken at all seriously. All of them are a joke.

    That's why I'm an atheist.
    It takes more than one sentence to establish that
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  2. #22
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    All the arguments for Christian theism are stupid.

    None of them are reasonable. None of them are 'close' to right. None of them should be taken at all seriously. All of them are a joke.

    That's why I'm an atheist.
    Because you're incapable of fairly assessing anything that challenges your pet prejudices? Because you think you're smarter and wiser than even the greatest Christian thinkers?

    uh... Oh- Kaaay
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

  3. #23
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVel View Post
    Because you think you're smarter and wiser than even the greatest Christian thinkers
    We can ask "To what extent do the scientists and academics in our world typically take seriously any particular argument regarding the existence of God?"

    Is there, for example, some well known argument that is acknowledged by all modern thinkers to be utterly compelling, such that it is taught to every student in high school as a matter of course? No.

    Is there perhaps an argument that is perhaps 50-50 such that it is continually debated by all thinking men throughout the world, and all scientists give thought to daily? No.

    Is there perhaps an argument that's widely regarded to have about a 10% chance of being right, such that a lot of people give it a heap of credence and so it is widely known? Not really.

    The simple fact is that modern scientists, intellectuals, academics, etc don't consider any of the major apologetic 'arguments' for the truth of Christianity to be worth any particularly serious level of consideration. The only place they are even mentioned in a modern university are in courses labelled "philosophy of religion" where the lecturer will explain to the students the ontological argument, cosmological argument, pascal's wager, the argument from design etc, not because the lecturer considers those remotely compelling or expects the students to do so, but because those are some identifiable historical arguments that were made by certain Christian intellectuals at the time. So regardless of what I personally think of the arguments, the fact is that the smart people in our society as a whole today do not in general consider the arguments anything other than a historical curiosity. The absolutely tiny number of Christian academics who think one of the arguments 'works' don't even agree with each other as to which one does.

    Because you think you're smarter and wiser than even the greatest Christian thinkers
    With regard to this sort of thing, it's worth noting that over the 20th century the average IQ massively increased (this observation is known as the Flynn Effect), and this has been attributed to everything from better nutrition to better schooling. A 'very smart' person by today's standards would run circles around historical thinkers who were judged 'very smart' in their own societies. Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.

  4. #24
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    It takes more than one sentence to establish that
    You're right. It takes 20+ years of being presented with supposedly watertight arguments for Christian theism that on inspection prove so leaky you could use them as a submarine dock.

    None of the arguments for Christian theism are aimed at determining what reality is. They are all, without exception, from Thomas to Craig, intended to bolster existing beliefs. As such they almost always make unwarranted assumptions that are based in the arguers faith, but easy to spot if (unlike those who propagate these apologetics) one does not share those assumptions. They are also usually blatantly obvious if the argument is put in formal symbolic logic, which is probably why apologists never do that.

    30+ years of examining such arguments does indeed result in the conclusion that they are all worthless, that there are no more arguments that remain unseen, an ability to dissect such arguments in less time than it takes to type a reply and a certainty that the person presenting them does not care whether or not they are flawed since that is not the basis for their belief and there are many more anyway.
    Last edited by Roy; 04-16-2018 at 01:36 AM.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

  5. Amen Starlight amen'd this post.
  6. #25
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    A 'very smart' person by today's standards would run circles around historical thinkers who were judged 'very smart' in their own societies. Since I have a PhD in a science field I would estimate that it is probable that I am smarter than even the greatest historical Christian thinkers and probably by a significant margin.
    I would prefer 'better educated,' 'wider read' and 'having internet access' to 'smarter'.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

  7. Amen Catholicity, stfoskey15 amen'd this post.
  8. #26
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    I would prefer 'better educated,' 'wider read' and 'having internet access' to 'smarter'.
    I was also thinking that there's the famous quote/proverb:
    "If I have seen further than other men it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
    As in, the cumulative wisdom of centuries of intellectuals and thinkers allows arguments and ideas to be time-tested and assessed not by one person but by thousands, and then we can today can inherit their accomplishments. It is not a matter of whether one single person is or isn't smarter than any single other person. It is a matter of whether the ideas that the historical Christian thinkers presented have subsequently been judged positively or negatively by the hundreds of thousands of thinkers that have followed since then. As I mentioned in my earlier post, their ideas have been soundly rejected across the board, and if you pick a random secular university today in the world the number of scientists or academics there making any sort of reference to those arguments is minuscule. They have been thoroughly rejected and are not treated seriously today.

  9. #27
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    I was also thinking that there's the famous quote/proverb:
    "If I have seen further than other men it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
    As in, the cumulative wisdom of centuries of intellectuals and thinkers allows arguments and ideas to be time-tested and assessed not by one person but by thousands, and then we can today can inherit their accomplishments. It is not a matter of whether one single person is or isn't smarter than any single other person. It is a matter of whether the ideas that the historical Christian thinkers presented have subsequently been judged positively or negatively by the hundreds of thousands of thinkers that have followed since then. As I mentioned in my earlier post, their ideas have been soundly rejected across the board, and if you pick a random secular university today in the world the number of scientists or academics there making any sort of reference to those arguments is minuscule. They have been thoroughly rejected and are not treated seriously today.


    Yes they’re treated so unserious today that their works are being published over a thousand years after their deaths, their words are studied by thousands of theologians and philosophers thousands of years later, and their collected works form the bases of a belief system with over a billion followers. Yep, not taken seriously at all.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  10. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  11. #28
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Yes they’re treated so unserious today that their works are being published over a thousand years after their deaths, their words are studied by thousands of theologians and philosophers thousands of years later, and their collected works form the bases of a belief system with over a billion followers. Yep, not taken seriously at all.
    You appear to be confused. Starlight was referring to the arguments of Aquinas, Anselm, Pascal, Craig, Paley, Plantinga etc. Not Islam.
    Last edited by Roy; 04-16-2018 at 05:11 AM.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

  12. #29
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Cerebrum123 has chosen to nominate the above in the Tektonics screwball thread. Perhaps he finds it too hard to provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

  13. #30
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    You appear to be confused. Starlight was referring to the arguments of Aquinas, Anselm, Pascal, Craig, Paley, Plantinga etc. Not Islam.


    It’s so funny when you try to be serious and fail badly at it.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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