Originally posted by carpedm9587
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Nobody Dies for a Lie
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Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWell D.E. is obviously the 2nd most intelligent TWebber.
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostHaving debated alternative theories for the Resurrection of Jesus, the apostles knowingly dying for a lie is easily the least incredible hypothesis.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThen I think you have not been looking. I have encountered MANY who claim that the martyrdom of the apostles is proof that the claims about Jesus are true (resurrection, miracles, etc.) because "no one would die for a lie." Evidence, maybe. Proof? No. There are simply too many other credible (IMO) possibilities.
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostIsn't that the whole point? If they die for a lie unknowingly it isn't actually a lie.
Like I said, it refutes only one particular argument against Christianity - that the apostles were a bunch of con men - but it doesn't prove anything beyond that. However, it does lead naturally to the question of WHY they sincerely believed it, and then we can analyze the evidence that was available to them.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNo, it just means they sincerely believed it. Somebody else could have been lying to them.
Like I said, it refutes only one particular argument against Christianity - that the apostles were a bunch of con men - but it doesn't prove anything beyond that. However, it does lead naturally to the question of WHY they sincerely believed it, and then we can analyze the evidence that was available to them.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostActually there is no sound evidence that the martyrdom of the apostles is any more of an historical reality than the the other fantastical stories in the bible anyway.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostIsn't that the whole point? If they die for a lie unknowingly it isn't actually a lie.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by JimL View PostActually there is no sound evidence that the martyrdom of the apostles is any more of an historical reality than the the other fantastical stories in the bible anyway.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostTrue - it would dying for a mistake, or an incorrect perception. The point is, all of this falls, for me, into a "we don't know" bucket. There are lots of possible scenarios. Of all of them, the "Jesus was actually the son of god and was resurrected" is the least probable/plausible.
Jesus was an intelligent shade of blue in thrall to the Chinese deity water Ho-Sing that took on the form of 14 snake-tongued men (Jesus + 13 apostles) and bent space time around jerusalem to create apparent miracles wush advanced technology then ascended into the sky in a plastic bucket attached to a 20th century crane painted with invisibility ink while speaking fluent Iroquios via a universal translator shaped like a statue of Michtlantecuthli the god of bad spelling
as an even less probable/plausible explanation.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostTrue - it would dying for a mistake, or an incorrect perception. The point is, all of this falls, for me, into a "we don't know" bucket. There are lots of possible scenarios. Of all of them, the "Jesus was actually the son of god and was resurrected" is the least probable/plausible.
Roy's mockery is entirely a scenario built on silence, and so doesn't even merit consideration.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostOn the contrary; an incorrect perception is the least probable/plausible given the biblical texts. You're free to throw (portions) of those out, but then we're back to lying.
Roy's mockery is entirely a scenario built on silence, and so doesn't even merit consideration.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostHe seems to be saying his own scenario is ridiculous if I'm reading him right.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNothing extraordinary or honorable about a mentally ill person committing suicide. Buckel deserves our sympathy, not our respect, and his death is in no way analogous to the crucifixion of Jesus.
There is a good article here:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-c...ed-lgbt-rights“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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