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  • #61
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Tell me Star, why are former Communist countries like Russia and China moving towards Capitalism?
    I think Communism is a stupid political policy. As Democratic Socialist writer George Orwell argued, Communism and Capitalism are basically two sides to the same coin. The final sentence of his book Animal Farm:

    “The creatures outside looked from pig [communist] to man [capitalist], and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #62
      Basically I think the "I hate socialism!" brigade here are utterly clueless, even in their own minds, about what 'socialism' is or what they think is wrong with it. Their ideas of it seem to oscillate wildly from ideas about Stalin and Mao through to Obamacare or higher taxes or a government jobs program or modern Western Europe. They don't really know quite what it is they're against, but they label it "socialism" and think that "socialism is bad". It's pathetic.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        I think Communism is a stupid political policy. As Democratic Socialist writer George Orwell argued, Communism and Capitalism are basically two sides to the same coin. The final sentence of his book Animal Farm:
        The point is Star you can't have social programs until to have first have a capitalist system. Every Democratic Socialist country that is not failing (like Venezuela) only does so because they have a robust capitalist underpinning.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          The point is Star you can't have social programs until to have first have a capitalist system. Every Democratic Socialist country that is not failing (like Venezuela) only does so because they have a robust capitalist underpinning.
          Venezuelans are flocking to Brazil.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            The point is Star you can't have social programs until to have first have a capitalist system. Every Democratic Socialist country that is not failing (like Venezuela) only does so because they have a robust capitalist underpinning.
            Under Hugo Chavez's 14 years of democratic socialism, Venezuela’s unemployment rate halved, income per capita more than doubled, the poverty rate fell by more than half, education improved, and infant mortality rates declined. Although his government clearly made the mistake of having an economy that was too oil-export-dependent and not sufficiently diversified.

            Nicolás Maduro, president from 2013 to the present, is a dictator rather than a democratic socialist. His government also seems to have been very corrupt. And the recent drop in the international oil prices have caused a huge economic crisis for the country, that is somewhat analogous to the problems the Oil Crisis in the 70s caused for (capitalist) Western countries.

            If you want to use Venezuela as an example of democratic socialism, then it's only fair to assess the 14 years of success when the democratic socialists were in power, as compared to the recent years of failure when a corrupt dictator who isn't a democratic socialist has been in power.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              Under Hugo Chavez's 14 years of democratic socialism, Venezuela’s unemployment rate halved, income per capita more than doubled, the poverty rate fell by more than half, education improved, and infant mortality rates declined. Although his government clearly made the mistake of having an economy that was too oil-export-dependent and not sufficiently diversified.

              Nicolás Maduro, president from 2013 to the present, is a dictator rather than a democratic socialist. His government also seems to have been very corrupt. And the recent drop in the international oil prices have caused a huge economic crisis for the country, that is somewhat analogous to the problems the Oil Crisis in the 70s caused for (capitalist) Western countries.

              If you want to use Venezuela as an example of democratic socialism, then it's only fair to assess the 14 years of success when the democratic socialists were in power, as compared to the recent years of failure when a corrupt dictator who isn't a democratic socialist has been in power.


              Sure, if you ignore the stomping of people’s rights, the secret police, the tocture, the theft, or the murders Venezuela was doing great! See what you ignore is that Chavez stole everything from those that had and (after he took a cut for himself and his elites of course) and gave it away. After they ran out of other people’s money though, things went south and you have the failure that follows anyone that goes full socialism. Thanks for proving The Iron Lady correct and being too clueless to figure out you did. Socialism will work for awhile because it isn’t difficult to take from others, but there comes a time where there’s nothing left to take. You blame the drop in oil prices for it, but plenty of oil rich countries haven’t gone broke. Sorry, it’s your beloved socialism that’s the problem. They ran out of OPM and you want to blame anyone and anything, but your failed economic system.
              Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 04-29-2018, 08:46 AM.
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                If you want to use Venezuela as an example of democratic socialism, then it's only fair to assess the 14 years of success when the democratic socialists were in power, as compared to the recent years of failure when a corrupt dictator who isn't a democratic socialist has been in power.
                No Star, Venezuela has been going down all those years. Why? Because they have been slowing destroying the capitalist system necessary to support social programs. Again Star, without capitalism Social Democracies will not and can not work. What don't you get?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  Depends what you mean by "socialism", that's a broad category and by many measures I live in a socialist country. The current Prime Minister here was in 2008 elected president of the International Union of Socialist Youth. We've had 'socialist' healthcare here for the past 76 years. The political science name for political environment of NZ and the Scandinavian countries would be "social democracies".
                  NZ isn't socialist. It has socialized programs. But you seem to like socialism as a government. NZ is a constitutional monarch with parliamentary style government. You should move to a real socialist country so you can get the full effect.

                  blah, blah blah deleted

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    No Star, Venezuela has been going down all those years. Why? Because they have been slowing destroying the capitalist system necessary to support social programs. Again Star, without capitalism Social Democracies will not and can not work. What don't you get?
                    Like most clueless liberals, he only sees the ostensible early success of socialism and then looks for a scapegoat when the system inevitably collapses so that he can avoid blaming the failure on socialism itself.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      NZ isn't socialist. It has socialized programs.
                      So are you saying socialized programs can be really good? Because I see socialized programs attacked a lot here as "socialism" and as bad because they are "socialism".
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        The point is Star you can't have social programs until to have first have a capitalist system. Every Democratic Socialist country that is not failing (like Venezuela) only does so because they have a robust capitalist underpinning.
                        Well at least that unevidenced ideological claim is better than "Socialism is eViL!!!"

                        A few thoughts:

                        1. Data about cooperatives across the world would seem to prove your claim wrong, because cooperatives are more successful in general than capitalist businesses.

                        2. Pretty much all 'fully socialist' countries I can think of in history arose in poor countries. The motives of the populace were generally along the lines of "our country is incredibly poor and awful so we're ready to try anything." Pre-communist Russia was famous for its poverty and peasant farmers, pre-communist China was an absolutely impoverished asian country (and notably does very well today and is still notionally 'communist'). None of the central/south american or african countries that have tried 'socialism' were ever particularly rich.

                        Marx's theory was that in the richest capitalist countries, inequality would skyrocket, and that the workers would eventually rise up and overthrow the mega-rich and take their fair share. So all the marxists in the early 20th century were expecting Germany (then the world's industrial powerhouse) to turn socialist via a revolution, and were confused when poverty-stricken Russia opted to try socialism and people in Germany showed no interest in it. And instead what happened in the richest countries was the Welfare State was invented, where the government put in a taxation system that fell more on the rich than on the poor, and gave healthcare and unemployment payments to the poor, in order to limit the inequality and stop the poor from overthrowing the government and the rich. Nonetheless the USSR was the first country in the world to implement the social program of universal healthcare for all its citizens (New Zealand was second, and the UK third), and such programs exist in almost all countries today except 3rd-world ones and the US (which is one reason why I often consider the US to be a 3rd-world country). So the rich countries have opted to become "social democracies" to prevent inequality getting too high, while a lot of poor countries have tried various forms of full-on socialism to see if that would magically make them ultra-rich (it didn't magically make them ultra-rich, but the economic growth in general under their socialist economies seems pretty good on average).

                        3. If you were to say that all socialist countries were to eventually fail due to lacking capitalist underpinnings, such a claim is in danger of being unfalsifiable, because if a socialist country is currently working fine you'll just say it hasn't failed yet, and if it's not currently working well you'll say it's failing now. One could say exactly the same thing of capitalism.
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          Well at least that unevidenced ideological claim is better than "Socialism is eViL!!!"

                          A few thoughts:

                          1. Data about cooperatives across the world would seem to prove your claim wrong, because cooperatives are more successful in general than capitalist businesses.

                          2. Pretty much all 'fully socialist' countries I can think of in history arose in poor countries. The motives of the populace were generally along the lines of "our country is incredibly poor and awful so we're ready to try anything." Pre-communist Russia was famous for its poverty and peasant farmers, pre-communist China was an absolutely impoverished asian country (and notably does very well today and is still notionally 'communist'). None of the central/south american or african countries that have tried 'socialism' were ever particularly rich.

                          Marx's theory was that in the richest capitalist countries, inequality would skyrocket, and that the workers would eventually rise up and overthrow the mega-rich and take their fair share. So all the marxists in the early 20th century were expecting Germany (then the world's industrial powerhouse) to turn socialist via a revolution, and were confused when poverty-stricken Russia opted to try socialism and people in Germany showed no interest in it. And instead what happened in the richest countries was the Welfare State was invented, where the government put in a taxation system that fell more on the rich than on the poor, and gave healthcare and unemployment payments to the poor, in order to limit the inequality and stop the poor from overthrowing the government and the rich. Nonetheless the USSR was the first country in the world to implement the social program of universal healthcare for all its citizens (New Zealand was second, and the UK third), and such programs exist in almost all countries today except 3rd-world ones and the US (which is one reason why I often consider the US to be a 3rd-world country). So the rich countries have opted to become "social democracies" to prevent inequality getting too high, while a lot of poor countries have tried various forms of full-on socialism to see if that would magically make them ultra-rich (it didn't magically make them ultra-rich, but the economic growth in general under their socialist economies seems pretty good on average).

                          3. If you were to say that all socialist countries were to eventually fail due to lacking capitalist underpinnings, such a claim is in danger of being unfalsifiable, because if a socialist country is currently working fine you'll just say it hasn't failed yet, and if it's not currently working well you'll say it's failing now. One could say exactly the same thing of capitalism.
                          It’s rather amusing to watch Starlight continue to ignore the failure of his beloved economic model and continue to make excuses for it. You’d think the extreme poverty, piles of bodies, starvation, and economic destruction that follows every country that goes full communist would tell him going full communist is a one way ticket to a breadline or your grave. The only reason China isn’t as broke as every other country that goes full socialist is that it isn’t full socialist and has introduced capitalism to prevent it going the way every other socialist ends up sooner or later. Sorry, but I prefer not living as a peasant and prefer to be a citizen. You’re welcome to move and get on the Manduro diet if you desire though.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            If you were to say that all socialist countries were to eventually fail due to lacking capitalist underpinnings, such a claim is in danger of being unfalsifiable, because if a socialist country is currently working fine you'll just say it hasn't failed yet, and if it's not currently working well you'll say it's failing now. One could say exactly the same thing of capitalism.
                            What socialist country are you talking about that does not have a capitalist underpinning?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              So are you saying socialized programs can be really good? Because I see socialized programs attacked a lot here as "socialism" and as bad because they are "socialism".
                              Sure they can be good if done correctly. I am not against welfare for instance, as long as it is managed correctly. I believe in public schools as long as they are efficient and actually teach our children. I have even said that I would support single payer healthcare if it were done right. I am just worried that it won't be judging how badly our government screws up other social programs.

                              But you have defended socialism as a government in the past. Are you saying you don't now?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                What socialist country are you talking about that does not have a capitalist underpinning?
                                North Korea? The reality is the only reason China hasn’t gone the way of the USSR is because we keep giving them money to exploit their huge work force to build our cell phones or crappy toys for us.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

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