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Paul: the thirteenth apostle?

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  • Paul: the thirteenth apostle?

    Perhaps I'm wrong, but according to my understanding of the bible there were, and would only ever be 12 apostles, 12 for the 12 tribes of Israel, and Matthias took the place of Judas. So how could Pauls story of being appointed by Jesus himself be true? That would make him the 13th apostle!

  • #2
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Perhaps I'm wrong, but according to my understanding of the bible there were, and would only ever be 12 apostles, 12 for the 12 tribes of Israel, and Matthias took the place of Judas. So how could Pauls story of being appointed by Jesus himself be true? That would make him the 13th apostle!
    He's been called that - though 71st/73rd would work too (Jesus sent out 70 - or 72 according to a variant reading - apostles in Luke 10). Apostle just means "one who is sent"; it wasn't strictly limited to the 12 core apostles, though they were always preeminent. The consensus developed that one needed to have been sent by Jesus himself to properly claim the title. Mary Magdalene is called "the apostle to the apostles" since Jesus sent her to tell the 12 about his resurrection.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #3
      The scripture calls Jesus Himself an Apostle...

      “Consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession” (Hebrews 3:1)
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        He's been called that - though 71st/73rd would work too (Jesus sent out 70 - or 72 according to a variant reading - apostles in Luke 10). Apostle just means "one who is sent"; it wasn't strictly limited to the 12 core apostles, though they were always preeminent. The consensus developed that one needed to have been sent by Jesus himself to properly claim the title. Mary Magdalene is called "the apostle to the apostles" since Jesus sent her to tell the 12 about his resurrection.
        I see. So there were no qualifications needed to be considered an apostle? No appointment by the others, nothing?

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        • #5
          It's like people focusing on "the 12 disciples". There were obviously many more than that, but "the 12" were a core group, and Peter, James and John were an "inner circle" of sorts.

          John 6:66 (can't help but note the "666", even though that's not actually significant here for a number of reasons) says "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him".

          So, obviously a lot more disciples than "the 12".
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            I see. So there were no qualifications needed to be considered an apostle? No appointment by the others, nothing?
            An apostle had to be an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ.


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              An apostle had to be an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ.
              We used to say they were 'students' who graduated -- disciples who became Apostles.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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              • #8
                James, the Lord's brother (Galatians 1:19); Barnabas (Acts 14:14)
                When I Survey....

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                • #9
                  Matthias was the thirteenth apostle.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    Matthias was the thirteenth apostle.
                    Naw, he was the second twelvth.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                    • #11
                      The Jerusalem which comes down from Heaven to Earth in the New Heaven and New Earth has 12 foundations which has the names of the 12 Apostles on it. ". . . And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. . . ."
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                      • #12
                        No one has yet mentioned Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16).
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                          No one has yet mentioned Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16).
                          Yes, they have. Post #12.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            I see. So there were no qualifications needed to be considered an apostle? No appointment by the others, nothing?
                            Appointment by Jesus himself is a pretty significant qualification. Paul's apostleship appears to have been accepted by the church leaders at the time (Gal 2:9). Paul also recognized that he was something of an exception (1 Cor. 15:8), not having been appointed during Jesus' ministry.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              No one has yet mentioned Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16).
                              The Greek text does not actually say Andronicus and Junia are apostles. . . . εισιν επισημοι εν τοις αποστολοις . . . . are noted among the apostles . . . .
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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