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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Actually, what you quoted says that the case has "major free speech components." It also has rights of the individual not to be discriminated against, and a need to find the balance - and then they sidestepped the issue because the ruling was based on the actions of the commission, not the actions of the baker.

    And yet, that was not the basis for the ruling...as has been noted.
    And it violated the Free Exercise Clause. You should read the other opinions by the conservative judges, and now that Kennedy is gone the next case that comes up should go much further.

    And we are now far afield of the discussion around infinites and their application...
    In the morning, I need to think some more. An arduous task for me even in the best of times...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      And it violated the Free Exercise Clause. You should read the other opinions by the conservative judges, and now that Kennedy is gone the next case that comes up should go much further.
      Baking a cake, Seer, is not a religious exercise. But I suspect you are right about the next case, and I am expecting same-sex marriage and Roe v. Wade to be reversed ASAP. And then I think the GOP had better hold on tight. It's going to be a wild ride.

      Originally posted by seer View Post
      In the morning, I need to think some more. An arduous task for me even in the best of times...
      At your leisure.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Baking a cake, Seer, is not a religious exercise. But I suspect you are right about the next case, and I am expecting same-sex marriage and Roe v. Wade to be reversed ASAP. And then I think the GOP had better hold on tight. It's going to be a wild ride.
        Actually Roe has been losing support over the years, that may and should go - I mean you agree right, you told me you were against abortion. I actually don't think they will take a Gay marriage case. Gay marriage is somewhat life affirming in an odd way, abortion just kills.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Actually Roe has been losing support over the years, that may and should go - I mean you agree right, you told me you were against abortion.
          I am against abortion. I am also against the state interceding in the medical decisions of a mature, self-aware, rational citizen. So no, I don't think Roe v. Wade should be reversed. I don't think that is the way to solve the abortion problem.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          I actually don't think they will take a Gay marriage case. Gay marriage is somewhat life affirming in an odd way, abortion just kills.
          I will be surprised if both cases aren't heard and reversed. We shall see.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Nonsense, again you don't get to decide what constitutes my faith or how I get to practice it in public or private. And thankfully, so far the Supreme Court agrees.
            It was a one-off.

            "Despite claims to the contrary, the Supreme Court’s Masterpiece Cakeshop decision was not a victory for conservative Christians who want to discriminate against gays. Today’s Supreme Court ruling in favor of Jack Phillips, the owner of Masterpiece Bakeshop, was not a broad victory for gay-hating Christians trying to justify discrimination based on their sincerely held religious beliefs.

            Instead, the ruling was a narrow decision that simply found that the original decision against Phillips at the state level was illegitimate because the Colorado commission that originally ruled against the anti-gay baker was tainted by anti-religious hostility."

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progres...shop-decision/
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              I am against abortion. I am also against the state interceding in the medical decisions of a mature, self-aware, rational citizen. So no, I don't think Roe v. Wade should be reversed. I don't think that is the way to solve the abortion problem.
              OK, so you have no problem using the state to force a Christian baker to violate his religious conscience, but you would not use the state to save the lives of the unborn.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                It was a one-off.

                "Despite claims to the contrary, the Supreme Court’s Masterpiece Cakeshop decision was not a victory for conservative Christians who want to discriminate against gays. Today’s Supreme Court ruling in favor of Jack Phillips, the owner of Masterpiece Bakeshop, was not a broad victory for gay-hating Christians trying to justify discrimination based on their sincerely held religious beliefs.

                Instead, the ruling was a narrow decision that simply found that the original decision against Phillips at the state level was illegitimate because the Colorado commission that originally ruled against the anti-gay baker was tainted by anti-religious hostility."

                http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progres...shop-decision/
                It is only the beginning Tass, if we get another originalist on the court, look out...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  OK, so you have no problem using the state to force a Christian baker to violate his religious conscience, but you would not use the state to save the lives of the unborn.
                  I have no problem with using the state to ensure that all people are treated in a nondiscriminatory fashion solely on the basis of their membership in a genetic class. Civil rights is something the state should enforce.

                  Abortion/pregnancy is a complex and unique issue that pits two lives that are inextricably linked against each other. I do not believe either should be sacrificed to the other. I believe the solution lies earlier in the process and is infrastructure-based, not legal. There is no way out of the legal conundrum that I can see.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                    I think we're talking at cross-purposes, somewhat. I have been endeavouring to explain why I feel that your moral views, based on your moral worldview, are worthless to me. As part of that effort, I have been also trying to point out that I feel that you are acting in ways inconsistent with your declared moral philosophy. I don't think you do consistently act as if your moral philosophy is true, rather, you use language and make arguments as if you were talking about something that had objective truth.

                    Your last paragraph above illustrates that. It makes no difference what anyone's moral beliefs are, what controls what actually happens is who has the most power, be it via persuasion, coercion or outright violence. Holding any particular moral belief is of no consequence in terms of approaching an objective truth about reality, thus, there is no value in maintaining that belief in the face of disagreement, rational argument against it, or even intimidation and appeals to consequences. So there is no significant reason for you to maintain whatever your current moral beliefs are - yet you spend plenty of time arguing for them - , nor any reason why you would feel any twinge of conscience when forcing someone to violate their conscience and go against their moral beliefs.

                    That is perhaps the greatest moral evil I can think of - compelling someone to violate their own conscience, thus making them morally despicable in their own eyes. Yet here you are happily advocating for it.
                    ^^^This.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Abortion/pregnancy is a complex and unique issue that pits two lives that are inextricably linked against each other. I do not believe either should be sacrificed to the other. I believe the solution lies earlier in the process and is infrastructure-based, not legal. There is no way out of the legal conundrum that I can see.
                      It is not a complex issue, you either support the legal killing of the unborn or you don't. In one case a homosexual couple don't get a wedding cake (which they can get anywhere else), in the other case an unborn child dies. I guess in your moral world getting a wedding cake rates higher than a human life.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment

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