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  • Same Sex Marriages and Sexual Orientation

    I think this is the right forum for this discussion, but if it is not, I trust the mods will relocate it. I created this thread because we were hijacking another thread with a discussion on this topic, and a few of us wanted to establish a "safe zone" for a discussion on this topic.

    The discussion started with an observation about "freedom of religion," where I asked another poster to give me an example of where the right of an atheist to NOT believe was intruding on the right of a theist to practice their faith. The response was the example of the baker being required to bake a cake for a same-sex couple - a case currently before SCOTUS. My position is a simple one: the baker has a wide range of things they can bake; it does not have to be wedding cakes. If they are going to bake wedding cakes, they need to do so without discrimination. To take any other position is to open the door to anyone discriminating against anyone else on the basis of "my faith says so." This sidetracked into a discussion of the nature of marriage.

    The original discussion started here, if you wish to see what prompted the start of this thread.

    Anyone can engage here, but the basic rule of the thread is "be civil." No name calling. No mocking emojis. Make your points with civility. That doesn't mean we cannot be passionate, and it doesn't mean we cannot be blunt. It just means we need to be adult.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-01-2018, 10:06 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I think this is the right forum for this discussion, but if it is not, I trust the mods will relocate it. I created this thread because we were hijacking another thread with a discussion on this topic, and a few of us wanted to establish a "safe zone" for a discussion on this topic.

    The discussion started with an observation about "freedom of religion," where I asked another poster to give me an example of where the right of an atheist to NOT believe was intruding on the right of a theist to practice their faith. The response was the example of the baker being required to bake a cake for a same-sex couple - a case currently before SCOTUS. My position is a simple one: the baker has a wide range of things they can bake; it does not have to be wedding cakes. If they are going to bake wedding cakes, they need to do so without discrimination. To take any other position is to open the door to anyone discriminating against anyone else on the basis of "my faith says so." This sidetracked into a discussion of the nature of marriage.

    Anyone can engage here, but the basic rule of the thread is "be civil." No name calling. No mocking emojis. Make your points with civility. That doesn't mean we cannot be passionate, and it doesn't mean we cannot be blunt. It just means we need to be adult.
    How about when my son had to sit through a Social Science class where homosexuality is taught as just another morally acceptable lifestyle? Where, if he didn't he would lose the credit for the whole course. And why must the Christian, by law, be forced to bake a cake for an event he finds deeply immoral? Should the black baker be forced to bake a cake for a KKK party? A Jew for a neo-nazi party? Where does the Constitution say that any man has a right to MY LABOR?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      I think this is the right forum for this discussion, but if it is not, I trust the mods will relocate it. I created this thread because we were hijacking another thread with a discussion on this topic, and a few of us wanted to establish a "safe zone" for a discussion on this topic.

      The discussion started with an observation about "freedom of religion," where I asked another poster to give me an example of where the right of an atheist to NOT believe was intruding on the right of a theist to practice their faith. The response was the example of the baker being required to bake a cake for a same-sex couple - a case currently before SCOTUS. My position is a simple one: the baker has a wide range of things they can bake; it does not have to be wedding cakes. If they are going to bake wedding cakes, they need to do so without discrimination. To take any other position is to open the door to anyone discriminating against anyone else on the basis of "my faith says so." This sidetracked into a discussion of the nature of marriage.

      Anyone can engage here, but the basic rule of the thread is "be civil." No name calling. No mocking emojis. Make your points with civility. That doesn't mean we cannot be passionate, and it doesn't mean we cannot be blunt. It just means we need to be adult.
      Only problem with moving threads is there is already a line of discussion going in the other, and that line of discussion has not been reproduced here, so there isn't a context beyond your simple summary above.

      Don't have time to 'restart' that context at the present time. We'll see where this one goes over the next few hours and then I'll see about importing my comments from the other thread if there is a need.

      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        How about when my son had to sit through a Social Science class where homosexuality is taught as just another morally acceptable lifestyle? Where, if he didn't he would lose the credit for the whole course.
        A school is not obligated to teach the tenets of a religion. They are obligated to teach the tenets by which a society operates. Today, in the U.S. we have adopted laws permitting same sex marriage, and the laws are increasingly preventing discrimination against any segment of society by gender, race, ethnicity, and (now) sexual orientation. If you want your son to obtain religious education, then you should enroll him in a religious school. No one is preventing you from doing so. You cannot, however, expect that the education that will be provided in a public school will align to your faith system. The establishment clause prevents this type of activity. And the free exercise clause is not a question here because you are not forced to have your child in that school. You are free to home school, or use a religious school, etc. So no one is preventing your free exercise.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        And why must the Christian, by law, be forced to bake a cake for an event he finds deeply immoral? Should the black baker be forced to bake a cake for a KKK party? A Jew for a neo-nazi party? Where does the Constitution say that any man has a right to MY LABOR?
        The KKK and a Neo-Nazi organization are social organizations that reflect ideas and actions. Saying "I will not support the KKK" is not the same as saying "I will sell to heterosexuals getting married but not homosexuals." That is simply blatant discrimination on the basis of who someone is. No one is demanding anyone's labor. What is being said is, "if you choose to labor in this field, you may not withhold that labor in a discriminatory fashion." It is no different than telling the restaurant that they may not turn away a black patron because they are black.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Only problem with moving threads is there is already a line of discussion going in the other, and that line of discussion has not been reproduced here, so there isn't a context beyond your simple summary above.

          Don't have time to 'restart' that context at the present time. We'll see where this one goes over the next few hours and then I'll see about importing my comments from the other thread if there is a need.

          Jim
          Yeah - that's a bit of a challenge. I was going to try to do that, and may do so later today if I have a chance. Meanwhile, I added the link to the start of our discussion to the OP, and if someone is reading this post, you can find the original discussion here. But if you're going to respond, please do it here instead of there.
          Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-01-2018, 10:07 AM.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            A school is not obligated to teach the tenets of a religion. They are obligated to teach the tenets by which a society operates. Today, in the U.S. we have adopted laws permitting same sex marriage, and the laws are increasingly preventing discrimination against any segment of society by gender, race, ethnicity, and (now) sexual orientation. If you want your son to obtain religious education, then you should enroll him in a religious school. No one is preventing you from doing so. You cannot, however, expect that the education that will be provided in a public school will align to your faith system. The establishment clause prevents this type of activity. And the free exercise clause is not a question here because you are not forced to have your child in that school. You are free to home school, or use a religious school, etc. So no one is preventing your free exercise.
            Did I say anything about teaching religion? No it was about my son being forced to sit through an immoral diatribe. In a government school supported by my tax dollars. And The establishment clause, as written, prevents no such thing. But your leftist attitude is exactly why we have these problems - trying to force your moral ideals on others. I would have had no problem if my son was able to opt out without failing for the year (actually two years).


            The KKK and a Neo-Nazi organization are social organizations that reflect ideas and actions. Saying "I will not support the KKK" is not the same as saying "I will sell to heterosexuals getting married but not homosexuals." That is simply blatant discrimination on the basis of who someone is. No one is demanding anyone's labor. What is being said is, "if you choose to labor in this field, you may not withhold that labor in a discriminatory fashion." It is no different than telling the restaurant that they may not turn away a black patron because they are black.
            Nonsense, homosexual marriage reflects ideas and actions. You have no argument, and no I do not believe that any man should be forced by law to serve any other man. And there is no Constitutional principle that says otherwise, we are free to associate with whom we choose - or not. That actually is a Constitutional principle.
            Last edited by seer; 05-01-2018, 10:56 AM.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              The KKK and a Neo-Nazi organization are social organizations that reflect ideas and actions. Saying "I will not support the KKK" is not the same as saying "I will sell to heterosexuals getting married but not homosexuals." That is simply blatant discrimination on the basis of who someone is. No one is demanding anyone's labor. What is being said is, "if you choose to labor in this field, you may not withhold that labor in a discriminatory fashion." It is no different than telling the restaurant that they may not turn away a black patron because they are black.
              This is nonsense.

              KKK and Nazi's have the freedom of speech to celebrate whatever they want. So why shouldn't they be able to force the baker to put whatever message on the cake they they pay for? The baker is in business selling cakes to the public with messages written on them. Why should he be able to refuse the KKK but not a gay couple?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Did I say anything about teaching religion? No it was about my son being forced to sit through an immoral diatribe. In a government school supported by my tax dollars. And The establishment clause, as written, prevents no such thing. But your leftist attitude is exactly why we have these problems - trying to force your moral ideals on others. I would have had no problem if my son was able to opt out without failing for the year (actually two years).
                Your belief that homosexuality is immoral is a function of your religion. The majority of Americans do not agree, and that percentage is steadily inching upwards. If your son goes to a public school, your son will obtain education that aligns with the general direction of society. You can opt out in several ways: home schooling, a religious school, etc. Also, unless your school is different, there are very few "required" courses. Most high schools have a requirement for a certain number of courses in certain disciplines. English is the usual exception. However, whether or not that is the case, you have no place dictating the content of the course based on your religious beliefs.

                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Nonsense, homosexual marriage reflects ideas and actions. You have no argument, and no I do not believe that any man should be forced by law to serve any other man. And there is no Constitutional principle that says otherwise, we are free to associate with whom we choose - or not. That actually is a Constitutional principle.
                Then is it acceptable/legal/moral for a person to open a restaurant and put a sign in the window that says, "no blacks served here?"
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  This is nonsense.
                  Perhaps it is to you. It is not to me.

                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  KKK and Nazi's have the freedom of speech to celebrate whatever they want.
                  Yes - they do.

                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  So why shouldn't they be able to force the baker to put whatever message on the cake they they pay for?
                  Because their belief and their membership are personal choices. They are not required to have those positions. Anyone who does not support such choices can boycott them. That is a long established right in law, and a common practice that is widely seen as perfectly acceptable.

                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  The baker is in business selling cakes to the public with messages written on them. Why should he be able to refuse the KKK but not a gay couple?
                  Because being gay is not an elective. Sexual orientation is widely recognize as being intrinsic to the person, like gender, race, ethnicity, etc. Discrimination against someone on the basis of sexual orientation is as reprehensible as discrimination against people on the basis of gender, race, and ethnicity. And our legal system now recognizes the right of same sex couples to marry, putting them on a common legal footing.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Well, I wasn't discussing that issue as a reason against same sex marriage! Yes, it has lots of problems if that is the goal (to reason against same-sex marriage) because a large number (small percentage) of hetero couple can't have kids and it leads to conundrum of why can hetero couple that can't (or won't) have kids get married but same-sex couples can't.

                    However, the biology of making children and the needs associated caring for them, the needs a civilization has to support that activity so it can continue, does have a lot to do with why hetero marriage is nearly universal across cultures and factors into (though it may not be the dominant factor) why same-sex marriage is nearly non-existent.

                    A discussion of those simple fact is important to understanding what is and is not marriage. But I have by no means stated any hard conclusions. I do believe it is irresponsible to dismiss these elements and say they don't matter. If we don't look at why marriage exists, how can we possibly understand if same-sex 'marriage' is a reasonable construct?

                    Jim
                    There is nothing about same-sex marriage that in any way obviates or threatens what heterosexual couples do. Yes, there are far more heterosexual marriages than homosexual ones. That is rooted in many things, including the disproportionate number of homosexuals versus heterosexuals in the population, and the long-standing rejection of homosexuality. Only in the last few decades have homosexuals begun to gain a common footing with heterosexuals.

                    Setting numbers aside, anyone who has been married will tell you that the first element in most marriages is personal bonding. I married my wife because I love her and wanted to spend my life with her, not because I wanted to breed and have children. The decision to start a family came later, and the process of adopting children and raising them will be only a part of our married life. We will be parents always, but we will soon no longer have the responsibility of raising children, and our marriage will be almost completely about one another again.

                    I think you are placing too strong an emphasis on "breeding" and not enough on "loving."
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Perhaps it is to you. It is not to me.



                      Yes - they do.



                      Because their belief and their membership are personal choices. They are not required to have those positions. Anyone who does not support such choices can boycott them. That is a long established right in law, and a common practice that is widely seen as perfectly acceptable.
                      So is gay marriage.


                      Because being gay is not an elective. Sexual orientation is widely recognize as being intrinsic to the person, like gender, race, ethnicity, etc. Discrimination against someone on the basis of sexual orientation is as reprehensible as discrimination against people on the basis of gender, race, and ethnicity. And our legal system now recognizes the right of same sex couples to marry, putting them on a common legal footing.
                      Gay marriage is elective.
                      And it is a chosen lifestyle just like being a racist Nazi is. Homosexuality is not a protected class like race or creed or age or sex is. So in fact, a Nazi who's religion says that blacks are not human actually has MORE rights under the civil rights laws than a gay person does when it comes to forcing someone to bake a cake for them.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        There is nothing about same-sex marriage that in any way obviates or threatens what heterosexual couples do. Yes, there are far more heterosexual marriages than homosexual ones. That is rooted in many things, including the disproportionate number of homosexuals versus heterosexuals in the population, and the long-standing rejection of homosexuality. Only in the last few decades have homosexuals begun to gain a common footing with heterosexuals.

                        Setting numbers aside, anyone who has been married will tell you that the first element in most marriages is personal bonding. I married my wife because I love her and wanted to spend my life with her, not because I wanted to breed and have children. The decision to start a family came later, and the process of adopting children and raising them will be only a part of our married life. We will be parents always, but we will soon no longer have the responsibility of raising children, and our marriage will be almost completely about one another again.

                        I think you are placing too strong an emphasis on "breeding" and not enough on "loving."
                        Ok - we are going to have a very hard time getting anywhere, because once again you are bringing assumptions about what my points are about that simply are not there.

                        First, I am married. I have 4 biological Children. I've been married almost 40 years. Do you suppose that marriage would have survived if I thought marriage was only about breeding?

                        But if marriage was only about personal bonding, do you suppose that hetero-sexual marriage would be nearly universal and same-sex unions almost non-existent?

                        I'll ask you what I asked Beagle: What is you explanation for that simple fact. Why is hetero-sexual marriage nearly universal across all cultures and same-sex unions (as a supported, sanctioned construct) are almost non-existent.


                        Jim
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Your belief that homosexuality is immoral is a function of your religion. The majority of Americans do not agree, and that percentage is steadily inching upwards. If your son goes to a public school, your son will obtain education that aligns with the general direction of society. You can opt out in several ways: home schooling, a religious school, etc. Also, unless your school is different, there are very few "required" courses. Most high schools have a requirement for a certain number of courses in certain disciplines. English is the usual exception. However, whether or not that is the case, you have no place dictating the content of the course based on your religious beliefs.
                          What you are saying is that I don't have a voice even though I'm increasingly pouring more and more of my hard earned money into the system. And of course I have every right to affect the system according to my beliefs, religious or not. There is nothing inherent in secular beliefs that make them more correct or better than religious beliefs. Basically what you are telling me is that because the majority is accepting or not accepting of a specific behavior I need to shut up and eat it. Good thing Martin Luther King Jr didn't follow your advice.

                          Then is it acceptable/legal/moral for a person to open a restaurant and put a sign in the window that says, "no blacks served here?"
                          Yep, Constitutionally. Morally I would have a problem with it.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            So is gay marriage.




                            Gay marriage is elective.
                            And it is a chosen lifestyle just like being a racist Nazi is. Homosexuality is not a protected class like race or creed or age or sex is. So in fact, a Nazi who's religion says that blacks are not human actually has MORE rights under the civil rights laws than a gay person does when it comes to forcing someone to bake a cake for them.
                            Um Sparko....I completely agree that same sex orientation is against the Bible, but didn't the US say that sexual orientation is protected? Or perhaps that pertains only to specific situations?
                            Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                              Um Sparko....I completely agree that same sex orientation is against the Bible, but didn't the US say that sexual orientation is protected? Or perhaps that pertains only to specific situations?
                              Not according to the civil rights act and the equal opportunity employment act which is what I was referring to. That is what is used to determine discrimination cases such as between businesses and customers or employees.

                              The protected classes are:

                              Race.
                              Color.
                              Religion or creed.
                              National origin or ancestry.
                              Sex.
                              Age.
                              Physical or mental disability.
                              Veteran status.
                              Genetic information.
                              Citizenship.

                              Comment

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