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Same Sex Marriages and Sexual Orientation

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    A) An example is not an argument.
    B) I'm of two minds on this. First, I see nothing wrong with subpoenas to gather evidence relevant to the case in question. On the other hand, I don't see how what is said within the church is relevant to the case.

    It is to be expected that evangelicals (and many other Christians) will be upset by this ordinance. It is, after all, mostly religious organizations that are perpetuating anti-homosexuality rhetoric. Unlike the civil rights era of the 1960s and 1970s, when many churches took the lead in ending the injustice, today churches are the ones perpetuating the injustice. I think it is a mistake. Eventually, this tide will turn, and churches will be on the wrong side of history this time. In the future, history books will likely see the relationship between churches and the LGBTQ community in the 2010s and 2020s as analogous to the relationship between the KKK and Neo-Nazis and the black community in the 1950s and 1960s.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Why do you keep repeating this? That is false. The baker clearly did not refuse the customers because of their being gay. He offered to sell them the cake and materials. He just refused to create the decoration for them because he disagrees with the message of gay marriage because of his religious beliefs. He also said he would not have any problem making them any other baked goods like a birthday cake.
      I keep repeating it because it is true. He refused to sell to them because they were gay AND getting married. Had they been heterosexual customers and getting married - there would have been no issue. The difference between the two scenarios is gay versus heterosexual. Marriage is common to both scenarios. The fact that he would have sold any other product to them is inconsequential. The basis of the refusal for THIS scenario is sexual orientation or, specifically, the same-sex nature of the two people being married.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        I think you may have lost track of the conversation. The class you were talking about earlier was cited as a civics class which your son needed to graduate. But it doesn't matter if it's civics or sex ed. Homosexuality is a normal human orientation and should be covered in both classes, from differing points of view. In the civics class, the topic should be covered as part of the current civil liberties battle in the U.S. In the sex ed class it should be covered from an definition/acceptance/safety perspective.
        No it was a social science class that include health and sex ed. That is where the sex ed was. And the class had nothing to do with civil liberties, there weren't many in the mid 90s for gays.



        Like requiring students to a public school to learn about human sexuality.
        No not require, force. They could get rid of that too. How did we ever manage for 250 years without sex ed in public schools!


        Actually, not just me. Homosexuality has been removed from the list of psychological "diseases" or aberrations, and our knowledge of it has expanded significantly. There is a fair amount of literature on the subject if you care to explore.
        I have, so what is your point? People with PHD after their names are just as immoral as anyone else? I'm sure they will eventually do the same for pedophilia: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...n_4184878.html



        Since no one is being forced to act against their religious beliefs, this does not apply. All that is being required is that a person not discriminate and use their religion as an excuse. This can be accomplished in several ways that do not compromise the person's religion.
        Of course, bake the cake or get put out of business. That is legal force... And why do you call a deeply held moral/religious belief an excuse?


        This is a good question. I need to noodle on it a bit.
        If I follow your logic, he must...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • OK - enough.

          I'm repeating myself over and over again, and I am under no illusion that anyone's mind is going to be changed. Discrimination is morally repugnant to me. It was repugnant when it was about race. It was repugnant when it was about sex. It is repugnant now when it is about sexual orientation or any other attribute associated with the LGBTQ community. That is not going to change. You are free to continue to hold these views, just as the Neo-Nazi is free to continue to speak against black people and/or Jews. But like them, you cannot hold those positions AND claim a moral high road. Bigotry and "moral" are mutually exclusive. I understand your religion says otherwise. Your religion is wrong.

          Beyond that, I see no purpose in spending more time on this. Views are entrenched (I certainly know mine are). There is no point in continuing.

          Last word to all of you. I'm going to get back to work and execute a carpescape.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Anyone can chooose NOT to have sex, Sparko. That doesn't say anything.



            Rape is immoral because of its forced nature. Someone who "cannot help themselves" in this context would be classified as having a mental problem and might be legally innocent of rape, but would be incarcerated for the protection of the society.



            No - I don't - because pedophilia involves children - so it is also a form of rape.



            There is no evidence that S&M is a "sexual orientation." It is nothing more than a sexual preference, akin to liking one position or one form of sexual exchange over another. Homosexuality is a demonstrated sexual orientation - like heterosexuality. Both types of people can also makes choices about action. So the point is homosexuality is not ONLY about action. It is also about sexual orientation. S&M is ONLY about action.
            So basically, you agree that it is all a choice and forms of behavior. The only difference is which ones you agree should be banned and which ones you think should be allowed for whatever relative moral reasons you have.

            Good to know.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Sparko, you're not making any sense. No one is "outlawed" for reading a book. You're not making any more sense here than you did in the other thread discussing polling accuracy.
              We don't just read a book, Carpe. We believe it and it informs us on our moral actions and lifestyle. So if you think that 'believing homosexuality is a sin' should be outlawed then you think Christianity should be outlawed.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I keep repeating it because it is true. He refused to sell to them because they were gay AND getting married. Had they been heterosexual customers and getting married - there would have been no issue. The difference between the two scenarios is gay versus heterosexual. Marriage is common to both scenarios. The fact that he would have sold any other product to them is inconsequential. The basis of the refusal for THIS scenario is sexual orientation or, specifically, the same-sex nature of the two people being married.
                The difference was the decoration of the cake. Not the orientation of the clients. He would have refused a straight person who wanted a gay marriage wedding cake.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  I keep repeating it because it is true. He refused to sell to them because they were gay AND getting married. Had they been heterosexual customers and getting married - there would have been no issue. The difference between the two scenarios is gay versus heterosexual. Marriage is common to both scenarios. The fact that he would have sold any other product to them is inconsequential. The basis of the refusal for THIS scenario is sexual orientation or, specifically, the same-sex nature of the two people being married.
                  Well, actually, the refusal was done due to not wanting to make the specific custom product desired; the customer was presumably irrelevant, as presumably if a heterosexual came in to ask for the same thing they would have still refused. The objection isn't to who is asking for the service, but the service itself. If the guy had refused to sell already-made cakes to the couple, I think you'd be right, but that isn't the situation from my understanding.
                  Last edited by Terraceth; 05-02-2018, 05:43 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                    Well, actually, the refusal was done due to not wanting to make the specific custom product desired; the customer was presumably irrelevant, as presumably if a heterosexual came in to ask for the same thing they would have still refused. The objection isn't to who is asking for the service, but the service itself. If the guy had refused to sell already-made cakes to the couple, I think you'd be right, but that isn't the situation from my understanding.
                    Correct, Sweet Cakes by Melissa said that they could buy any ready made cake, they just did not want to decorate it. And if memory serves they even suggested other bakeries in the area that would be happy to do the cake. But no, that was not good enough - the Kleins lost their business and had to pay $135,000 to the fascists.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      That's exactly what you are doing if you refuse service to customers based upon personal religious beliefs, just because you think they take precedence over the customers's legal right to be served.
                      Edited by a Moderator. The owner refusing a particular service to a particular customer in no way forces that customer to hold the owner's values. It merely demonstrates that the owner will not participate in celebrating that customer's values.

                      Moderated By: Bill the Cat

                      Watch the language.

                      ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                      Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                      Last edited by Bill the Cat; 05-02-2018, 06:43 PM.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

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                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

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                      • To be honest, I don't know why people try to frame it as a religious issue. I feel a much better argument is to leave the religious issue out of it entirely and just argue that people should have the right to refuse to provide a custom service/product based on any issue they have with that service/product (which could be anything from a moral objection to it simply being more work than you want to do).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                          To be honest, I don't know why people try to frame it as a religious issue. I feel a much better argument is to leave the religious issue out of it entirely and just argue that people should have the right to refuse to provide a custom service/product based on any issue they have with that service/product (which could be anything from a moral objection to it simply being more work than you want to do).
                          It should have nothing to do with religious beliefs or any other personal views, e.g. racist, anti-Semitic or homophobic, to deny service to customers. The prevailing relevant law of the land, namely the Civil Rights Act of 1964, states that it is "An act to enforce the constitutional right to vote, to confer jurisdiction upon the district courts of the United States of America to provide injunctive relief against discrimination in public accommodations..." Any shop or service-facility is defined as a "public accommodation".
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Even if he wanted it saying "Kill all N***" and wanted a dead black person depicted on the cake with the groom's boot on his head? Again, it's not the cake itself that is the problem it is forcing the baker to decorate it with a message that he doesn't agree with.
                            No you are wrong. The issue has always been the message, not the client's sexual orientation. They did not refuse to sell them a cake, just to decorate it promoting a specific message or idea, "gay marriage"
                            I could link yet again to the example of a baker refusing to serve a same-sex couple only after the design for the cake had been agreed and a quote provided, but since it didn't sink in the first six times I can't justify the effort to find it.

                            It is not that bakers are refusing to make cakes decorated with messages they don't agree with, it's that bakers are refusing to make cakes that will be used in a ceremony they don't agree with.
                            Last edited by Roy; 05-03-2018, 03:54 AM.
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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                            • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                              Well, actually, the refusal was done due to not wanting to make the specific custom product desired; the customer was presumably irrelevant, as presumably if a heterosexual came in to ask for the same thing they would have still refused.
                              Not in the case I'm aware of, where the refusal occurred only after the baker had quoted for an agreed design.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                It should have nothing to do with religious beliefs or any other personal views, e.g. racist, anti-Semitic or homophobic, to deny service to customers. The prevailing relevant law of the land, namely the Civil Rights Act of 1964, states that it is "An act to enforce the constitutional right to vote, to confer jurisdiction upon the district courts of the United States of America to provide injunctive relief against discrimination in public accommodations..." Any shop or service-facility is defined as a "public accommodation".
                                Except in this act homosexuals, like any other criminal of the time, was not a protected class.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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