Originally posted by seer
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“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - they are not. That is the incorrect assumption you continually make. Essentially - Technique #1Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThere is an element of truth to this. Progress in morality is similar to progress in evolution: it does not have an objective "goal." It is measured against context and, generally, in terms of its effect on individuals.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat do you mean they are not? Of course by definition relative ethics are ephemeral.
Ephemeral: lasting for a very short time.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat does effect on individuals mean?
Originally posted by seer View PostI mean evolution does not care what effect it has on individual, it doesn't care if we survive as a species or not.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - they are not. Technique #1
Ephemeral: lasting for a very short time.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt also means transient, temporary. As compared to permanent. And of course they would all be short-lived as compared to universal moral truths.
And you still have not made an actual argument...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostHistorically, we have a sense of "progress" when we have seen the lives, freedoms, and happiness of individuals expanded and respected. When we uncover moral attitudes that restrict those and alter those moral codes accordingly, have a sense of "progress." I suspect that is because "life" and "liberty" and "happiness" are three elements the vast majority (dare I say all?) of humanity values.
No, "evolution" doesn't "care" any more than the manual that describes how the engine in your car works "cares." Evolution is a process, not a person. It is nothing more than the description of how life unfolds and progresses.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYes...if your definition of "ephemeral" is "anything less than permanent," then relative morality is "ephemeral." Another example of your binary thinking. I think you and I both know the word's connotation AND denotation is "fleeting," and "whimsical." So this is simply another example of your Technique #2.
And you still have not made an actual argument...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes those are subjective considerations that some hold.
Originally posted by seer View PostSo I have no idea what this means: It is measured against context and, generally, in terms of its effect on individuals.
Originally posted by seer View PostThen why did you use evolution as an example, since evolution is not aimed at the survival of the individual or the species in general.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostOf course I have made an argument, relative ethics are ephemeral. And why you fight so hard for these transient moral beliefs is still a mystery to me... I mean really Carp, you keep accusing religionists like me of bigotry when that really has no objective meaning or weight. You might as well accuse me of bigotry for preferring the color green to red.
And still no actual argument...
I think, Seer, that you are so deeply embedded in your thinking that you still do not see that you are actually not saying anything. I understand. I was there once, when I was Christian. It took me a while to realize that my moral arguments were actually vacuous, and to move to a more thoughtful approach. Of course, from your perspective, it probably looks like I moved from "meaningful" to "meaningless." If you actually look at the arguments being made...you might find that is not actually true.Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-26-2018, 12:07 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSome? So you think the number of people who value their lives, liberty, and happiness is a modicum of the human population?
Because the question was about there being "progress" in a relative system. Evolution and morality are both relative systems. Evolutionary "progress" is measured against adaptation to environment. Moral "progress" is typically expressed in terms of expansions of life, liberty, and happiness (to name the primary ones). Obviously there are other ways in which the two differ (e.g., emphasis on the individual vs the species is one of those).Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo this response is a combination of Technique #1 (subjective/relative things are not objective/absolute - which we all know already) and Technique #2 (use diminishing words wherever and whenever possible, equate moral statements with color preferences, and then claim you are not...)
And still no actual argument...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThen tell me Carp, how is a preference for a color objectively less important than a preference for your gay rights?
Originally posted by seer View PostI'm saying logically you can not make the case since subjectively I may find my color preference more important than gay rights, you may hold the opposite.
At least you're consistent....The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAhh... you want me to provide an objective answer from a subjective worldview... Technique #1 yet again....
And this is a marvelous example of Technique #2
At least you're consistent....Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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