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Same Sex Marriages and Sexual Orientation

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    But you have the right to impose your beliefs on others? And remember I was not asking for religion to be taught, but that you don't impose your immoral views on my child.
    A school system has the right/obligation to teach the participants of the school system the legal and social framework of the society. In our society, acceptance of homosexuals as equals has become the law of the land as well as the social norm.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Except in my case that was not an option. There is no reason in the world why homosexuality needs to be brought up in the first place, any more than bestiality.
    I have no idea what any of those options are not available to you. And homosexuality/heterosexuality are brought up because a) they are normal human sexual orientations and b) LBGTQ rights are a central theme of our modern society, and the civil rights challenge of the modern day.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Show me where the Constitution it even suggests, that I as a business owner, has to by law, serve those I choose not to? Not what leftist courts invented but what the Constitution actually says. Where is that principle? I can show you the principle of free association. I will be waiting Carp...
    As previously noted, SCOTUS has used the equal protections and due process clauses to support its positions on discrimination of this sort. As for the rest of the civil rights legislation and constitutional actions, they are listed here.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Really? Exactly where is it inconsistent?
    You are permitting one set of privileges for one sexual orientation and denying them to another.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-01-2018, 04:11 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      A school system has the right/obligation to teach the participants of the school system the legal and social framework of the society.
      Is this written down somewhere, besides your post?
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        No it is not a canard Carp, it is a fact. That because I hang my shingle out I then can be forced, by law, to serve those I prefer not to. That is forced labor. No matter how you cut it, and that is not a Constitutional principle. It goes against a man's freedom to associate with whom he will, in business.
        No one is forcing you to labor. You don't have to hang your shingle out at all. You don't have to offer particular services. You are simply not morally or legally permitted to select whom you serve on the basis of their skin color, gender, or sexual orientation.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          This one surprises me a little - that you don't see a need to protect animals from sexual abuse by humans.
          I've been pretty clear in the past that sex is, IMO, a morally neutral act. It is the context that provides moral content. So animals should no more be "abused" by sex than any other human being should be abused by sex. An animal lacks the ability to consent, but then again there are a lot of things we do to and with animals that would require consent if the same thing were done to or with another human. So I don't see sex as any different. If the animal is not harmed, then there is no moral content. Personally, I find the practice more than a little - but morality is not determined by what I do or do not find repugnant.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Is this written down somewhere, besides your post?
            I have no idea.

            While this is not the only thing a school system is responsible for, that is the entire purpose of a school system: to prepare its participants to enter into society as informed citizens. Why else would government be involved in providing an educational infrastructure?
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              I've been pretty clear in the past that sex is, IMO, a morally neutral act. It is the context that provides moral content. So animals should no more be "abused" by sex than any other human being should be abused by sex. An animal lacks the ability to consent, but then again there are a lot of things we do to and with animals that would require consent if the same thing were done to or with another human. So I don't see sex as any different. If the animal is not harmed, then there is no moral content. Personally, I find the practice more than a little - but morality is not determined by what I do or do not find repugnant.
              Yet, one of the legal factors for establishing "rape" can be that one party lacks the ability to consent.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Yet, one of the legal factors for establishing "rape" can be that one party lacks the ability to consent.
                As I said - the human-to-human and human-to-animal rules are different. You also need consent before you hook a human up to a plow - but we don't think twice about doing it for horses. You need consent before you train someone to be a bomb specialist, but we don't ask the dog before we train it to be a bomb-sniffing dog. In general, with animals, the credo tends to be "do no harm."
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  I have no idea.
                  So, it's just your opinion.

                  While this is not the only thing a school system is responsible for, that is the entire purpose of a school system: to prepare its participants to enter into society as informed citizens.
                  I think you're overshooting the runway - the purpose was to prepare participants to enter society 'educated', not indoctrinated.

                  Why else would government be involved in providing an educational infrastructure?
                  So that people can function in society, being able to Read, wRite and do aRithmetic. To dabble in "preparation to be informed citizens" calls for the selection of somebody's agenda as the "information".
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    As I said - the human-to-human and human-to-animal rules are different....
                    I'm actually more than a little surprised you're ok with bestiality, the very definition of which is "sexual relations between a human being and a lower animal".
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      A school system has the right/obligation to teach the participants of the school system the legal and social framework of the society. In our society, acceptance of homosexuals as equals has become the law of the land as well as the social norm.
                      Right, we need to kowtow to the tyranny of the majority. I'm sure you would have said the same thing to King.


                      I have no idea what any of those options are not available to you. And homosexuality/heterosexuality are brought up because a) they are normal human sexual orientations and b) LBGTQ rights are a central theme of our modern society, and the civil rights challenge of the modern day.
                      Well rape, prostitution and pedophilia are normal human desires too, as a matter of fact rape probably has more of a genetic pedigree than homosexuality given the behaviors of our closest primate cousins.

                      As previously noted, SCOTUS has used the equal protections and due process clauses to support its positions on discrimination of this sort. As for the rest of the civil rights legislation and constitutional actions, they are listed here.
                      I'm not asking how they bastardized the Constitution, I asked you to show me in the Constitution where the Government has the right to force by law one man to serve another. Equal protection and due process ONLY have to do with what Governments can or can not do. Nothing about the citizen.


                      You are permitting one set of privileges for one sexual orientation and denying them to another.
                      Well of course, I don't let the man oriented towards sex with animals or rape have his way. That would be immoral.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        So, it's just your opinion.
                        No. I have been involved with the local school system for quite some time. This opinion is shared by many, and reflected in a lot of the materials I have seen working with school boards and PTAs. I just did a quick search on "purpose of public schools" and found a lot of online material that reflects that general purpose as part of a list of purposes. It all depends on what you accept as "authoritative."

                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I think you're overshooting the runway - the purpose was to prepare participants to enter society 'educated', not indoctrinated.
                        One person's education is another person's indoctrination. As best I can tell - if you WANT them to know it, it's education. If you don't want them to know it, it gets called indoctrination.

                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        So that people can function in society, being able to Read, wRite and do aRithmetic. To dabble in "preparation to be informed citizens" calls for the selection of somebody's agenda as the "information".
                        If reading, writing, and arithmetic were the only purposes of school, no school would ever have a history program, a science program, a home economics program, a sports program, etc. Schools exist to give students not only a grasp of the fundamentals you list, but an appreciation for the history of the world and this country, an understanding of the basic sciences, job skills, and an understanding of the social context. They were doing that when I was a child, when my parents were children, and they are doing that today. In other words, government has an interest in provide public schooling because an informed citizen is vital to the survival of a democratic republic.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I'm actually more than a little surprised you're ok with bestiality, the very definition of which is "sexual relations between a human being and a lower animal".
                          I'm not "ok" with it. I find it repulsive. It simply has no moral content that I can detect. If you can make a case for its immorality, by all means do so - but it's a bit of a tangent to the subject at hand.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            No one is forcing you to labor. You don't have to hang your shingle out at all. You don't have to offer particular services. You are simply not morally or legally permitted to select whom you serve on the basis of their skin color, gender, or sexual orientation.
                            Right, take away my ability to feed my family because I refuse to be a part of an immoral act - homosexual marriage. That really is fascist Carp...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Right, we need to kowtow to the tyranny of the majority. I'm sure you would have said the same thing to King.
                              Not everything held by "the majority" constitutes tyranny. Indeed, when the majority is seeking to expand civil liberties, it's hard to define that as "tyranny."

                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Well rape, prostitution and pedophilia are normal human desires too, as a matter of fact rape probably has more of a genetic pedigree than homosexuality given the behaviors of our closest primate cousins.
                              Normal? Rape is, by definition, forced sex - and the forced aspect makes it immoral. Pedophilia is also forced sex because the human object is not capable of mature consent. Prostitution is not something I have a moral objection to. And I do not defend/refute moral positions on the basis of what other animals do. Humans are relatively unique in their cognitive capabilities and the associated ability to moralize.

                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              I'm not asking how they bastardized the Constitution, I asked you to show me in the Constitution where the Government has the right to force by law one man to serve another. Equal protection and due process ONLY have to do with what Governments can or can not do. Nothing about the citizen.
                              I provided you with a resource for legislation and constitution bases for civil rights actions since the early 1800s, Seer. I have to admit I am less than enthusiastic about working much harder than that given your historical rejection of pretty much any argument made. If you do not find it in the constitution, so be it.

                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Well of course, I don't let the man oriented towards sex with animals or rape have his way. That would be immoral.
                              I do not see how this connects with what was being discussed.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                I'm not "ok" with it. I find it repulsive. It simply has no moral content that I can detect. If you can make a case for its immorality, by all means do so - but it's a bit of a tangent to the subject at hand.
                                Nope, I'm done.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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