Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Prom dress prompts 'cultural appropriation' row

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Sparko & Chrawnus,

    Minorities internalizing self-hatred due to hearing and absorbing socially prevalent views about their own minority group is a massive problem for minority groups everywhere. It's not something easily visible to members of the majority group so it's easy to miss if you're not looking for it. However, members of the majority group tend to be familiar with the comparatively rare occurrences where a member of the minority group says something in public that is anti the majority group. But think for a moment just how many people are in the minority group compared to the ones publicly speaking out against the majority group - the anti-majority-group voices probably constitute less than one percent of one percent of the minority's population - you're merely hypersensitive to it because you're not used to receiving any criticism against your group so it sticks in your mind. So 99%+ of the minority group might be affected on some level or another by internalized self-hatred, but what gets repeated to you in your selected media is the <1% of them who say something nasty, or that can be construed as nasty, about the majority group.

    Also it's worth noting that paranoid majority group members, including those on this forum, tend to willfully misinterpret statements by majority groups to be anti-majority when they aren't. The common example today is Black Lives Matter, which meant "Black Lives DO Matter, so cops should stop slaughtering black people and treating them as if they are worthless scum" in the minds of the creators of the movement, but which was willfully misinterpreted by the paranoid as "ONLY Black Lives Matter, White Lives DON'T" which would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.


    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Immigrants used to strive to learn the language spoken by the vast majority of the people living here but now few seem to bother.
    Well actually I was reading an article yesterday about conservative talker Tomi Lahren's ancestors. Surviving documentation demonstrates:
    - Her great-great-grandmother spoke no English after at least 10 years in the US.
    - Her great-grandmother still spoke German after at least 41 years in the US.
    - Her great-grandfather's baptism in the US was recorded in Norwegian.
    - (And, amusingly) Her great-great-grandfather was indicted by a US grand jury for forging his naturalization papers.

    There's no particular reason to assume her family history is atypical in this regard. And, in fact, I presume it's well-known to the experts that this sort of thing was fairly normal in US history because a genealogist decided to go digging into her history the moment they heard her claim on TV:
    "You don't just come into this country with low skills, low education, not understanding the language and come into our country because someone says it makes them feel nice. That's not what this country is based on." - Tomi Lahren on Fox News
    Presumably the genealogists was familiar enough with typical patterns in historical American immigration to both know that claim was historically untrue and to think it fairly likely it could be demonstrated to be untrue for any particular American's family history.

    Personally I had a great-grandfather who immigrated to this country from Prussia (Germany now) to escape the harsh conditions there at the time and came to NZ speaking not a word of English. But from what I understand he did learn English reasonably quickly and became a reasonably prosperous farmer.

    Don't get me wrong: I am definitely a fan of immigrants learning the local language and believe that should be encouraged to the point of being mandatory, and likewise with them learning and fitting into the local culture. I am, on the whole, more against "multiculturalism" than I'm for it. But let's not pretend that immigrants "used to" be totally wonderful and integrate fast and that now they don't. Immigration has always been contentious throughout US history. There were times when to be Irish in American was what being Mexican is today.

    I don't recall the study at the moment (although I've previously posted it) showing that even among the so-called "Dreamers" (the folks we are told who really want to become Americans and contribute to society), something like half can't be troubled to even learn more than just a few words in English.
    The study that I can see the right-wing outlets touting online is from the CIS which is an organisation designed to create research with a goal of reducing immigration, so more than a tad of bias.

    I've seen precisely the opposite complaint from progressive sources: Namely that a lot of people assume that the DACA group speak Spanish, when actually it is a group which largely can't speak Spanish and only speaks English and hence sending them 'back' to Spanish-speaking countries where they can't speak the language is absurd.

    It would be an interesting study to do though for an unbiased survey. I see 2013 census data shows that 89% of US born Latinos answered the census question of how well they speak English as either "very well" or natively (spoken in the home). I guess a lot of them could be overstating their proficiency?

    For example, up until the middle of 2006, the Seattle Public Schools web site disparaged those seeking to acculturate as "giving up" their own culture. Similar things happened in California when they decided to start requiring students in the public skewls to learn English.
    Er... so you're upset about what some website that probably nobody read said more than a decade ago? And California requires their students to learn English... a move I agree with... so the biggest and one of the most liberal states in the country requires the students to learn English... you seem to be somehow managing to turn this into a complaint?
    Last edited by Starlight; 05-15-2018, 06:13 PM.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Sparko & Chrawnus,

      Minorities internalizing self-hatred due to hearing and absorbing socially prevalent views about their own minority group is a massive problem for minority groups everywhere. It's not something easily visible to members of the majority group so it's easy to miss if you're not looking for it. However, members of the majority group tend to be familiar with the comparatively rare occurrences where a member of the minority group says something in public that is anti the majority group. But think for a moment just how many people are in the minority group compared to the ones publicly speaking out against the majority group - the anti-majority-group voices probably constitute less than one percent of one percent of the minority's population - you're merely hypersensitive to it because you're not used to receiving any criticism against your group so it sticks in your mind. So 99%+ of the minority group might be affected on some level or another by internalized self-hatred, but what gets repeated to you in your selected media is the <1% of them who say something nasty, or that can be construed as nasty, about the majority group.

      Also it's worth noting that paranoid majority group members, including those on this forum, tend to willfully misinterpret statements by majority groups to be anti-majority when they aren't. The common example today is Black Lives Matter, which meant "Black Lives DO Matter, so cops should stop slaughtering black people and treating them as if they are worthless scum" in the minds of the creators of the movement, but which was willfully misinterpreted by the paranoid as "ONLY Black Lives Matter, White Lives DON'T" which would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
      If black lives matter, why don't they stop killing each other?

      And when anyone even suggests, "all lives matter" the BLM crowd went nuts and started shouting them down and rioting. BLM is a racist movement, pure and simple. It pretends to care about black lives, but in reality it is about condemning police and anyone who dares criticize the movement in any way. We have had BLM members tell whites to get to the back of the crowd, shut up, and claim that whites should give blacks their houses and money.

      Your other comment about "black people who are anti-white is relatively uncommon." is completely laughable. No not all blacks are anti-white but a large portion of members of such groups like the BLM definitely are. I don't see them wanting to be white and condemning blacks either. Your previous statement was completely naive. But maybe that is because you live on some isolated island in the middle of the Pacific surrounded by sheep.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        If black lives matter, why don't they stop killing each other?
        That's probably achieved TWeb's racism quota for the day.

        And when anyone even suggests, "all lives matter" the BLM crowd went nuts and started shouting them down and rioting.
        Unfortunately BLM's easily misunderstandable name led to miscommunications. BLM people took "all lives matter" statements as a sign the speakers were rejecting their specific concerns about the high rate of black deaths in police custody and at the hands of police officers and were instead mouthing vague and unrelated platitudes. I think they were usually right in this reading of speaker-intentions.

        BLM is a racist movement, pure and simple.
        No. I think opposition to it is.

        It pretends to care about black lives, but in reality it is about condemning police and anyone who dares criticize the movement in any way.
        It is a movement about condemning police actions toward black people where police treat the lives of black people as not mattering. The thrust of the movement is to say that police actions toward black people are wrong in America and that police should treat the lives of black people they deal with as actually mattering. Of course the movement is against those who are critical of it!

        We have had BLM members tell whites to get to the back of the crowd, shut up, and claim that whites should give blacks their houses and money.
        BLM cannot control everything each and every member does, obviously.

        Your other comment about "black people who are anti-white is relatively uncommon." is completely laughable.
        I think you live in such a bubble that a tiny tiny tiny number of anti-white comments get magnified in your echo chamber.

        But maybe that is because you live on some isolated island in the middle of the Pacific surrounded by sheep.
        Mainly cows, not sheep. And I live in a coastal city, so it's not surrounded on all sides unless the cows have learned to swim when I wasn't looking. I presume your city also has farms around it? That tends to be a pretty normal thing.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post


          Well actually I was reading an article yesterday about conservative talker Tomi Lahren's ancestors. Surviving documentation demonstrates:
          - Her great-great-grandmother spoke no English after at least 10 years in the US.
          - Her great-grandmother still spoke German after at least 41 years in the US.
          - Her great-grandfather's baptism in the US was recorded in Norwegian.
          - (And, amusingly) Her great-great-grandfather was indicted by a US grand jury for forging his naturalization papers.
          Back in the early to mid 19th cent., especially in small rural communities that might be predominantly immigrant, is not exactly the same as the 21st cent. would you not agree?

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Back in the early to mid 19th cent., especially in small rural communities that might be predominantly immigrant, is not exactly the same as the 21st cent. would you not agree?
            Does that mean you've switched from claiming that immigrants used to assimilate fast, much faster than they do now, to claiming that they used to assimilate really slowly and formed immigrant communities?
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              Does that mean you've switched from claiming that immigrants used to assimilate fast, much faster than they do now, to claiming that they used to assimilate really slowly and formed immigrant communities?
              If the only ones in the region were their fellow countrymen[1] they really had nothing to assimilate into. More over, while it is not uncommon for older immigrants to not become fluent in the language of the country they moved to (that has a lot with the difficulty of learning new languages when you're older), you would have been very hard pressed to find any of their children who weren't.

              That is not what we see today.

              So-called Dreamers, by definition, were children when they came to the U.S. We are repeatedly told how much they want to be Americans. And yet, something like half of them can't even trouble themselves to pick up more than a couple words in English. That's not even making even the slightest effort to assimilate. All things cnsidered, that can be considered as willfully refusing to assimilate.

              And THAT is the difference.












              1. Look at the state of Minnesota for instance. Nearly all the European settlers that moved there were Scandinavian but even with that isolated environment within a generation those first settlers (or their children) could speak English as well as anyone from any other part of the country.

              Now why folks from the ice box of Europe, who could have settled virtually anywhere in the country, all congregated in what is in effect the ice box of America is beyond me.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                That's probably achieved TWeb's racism quota for the day.
                Look up the stats mr. charts and statistics. Most black murders are committed by other blacks.


                Unfortunately BLM's easily misunderstandable name led to miscommunications. BLM people took "all lives matter" statements as a sign the speakers were rejecting their specific concerns about the high rate of black deaths in police custody and at the hands of police officers and were instead mouthing vague and unrelated platitudes. I think they were usually right in this reading of speaker-intentions.
                Your rationalizing is noted.

                No. I think opposition to it is.
                of course you do.

                It is a movement about condemning police actions toward black people where police treat the lives of black people as not mattering. The thrust of the movement is to say that police actions toward black people are wrong in America and that police should treat the lives of black people they deal with as actually mattering. Of course the movement is against those who are critical of it!
                That's what they claim anyway. That is not what their actions show.

                BLM cannot control everything each and every member does, obviously.
                They ARE their members. It isn't just some isolated krank here and there.

                I think you live in such a bubble that a tiny tiny tiny number of anti-white comments get magnified in your echo chamber.
                I think that statement exceeded Tweb's irony quota for the day.

                Mainly cows, not sheep. And I live in a coastal city, so it's not surrounded on all sides unless the cows have learned to swim when I wasn't looking. I presume your city also has farms around it? That tends to be a pretty normal thing.
                Say hi to Frodo for me.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post



                  Mainly cows, not sheep. And I live in a coastal city, so it's not surrounded on all sides unless the cows have learned to swim when I wasn't looking. I presume your city also has farms around it? That tends to be a pretty normal thing.
                  They learned to swim a long, long time before you were around. What do you think the cowboys who were moving the herd during a cattle drive did when they came to a river? Look for a convenient bridge? Hire a ferry?







                  Okay, you probably can ignore the last one

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    So-called Dreamers, by definition, were children when they came to the U.S. We are repeatedly told how much they want to be Americans. And yet, something like half of them can't even trouble themselves to pick up more than a couple words in English.
                    You keep repeating this false claim. As I've pointed out, census data says 89% speak English very well or in the home. The only data that suggests otherwise is something an extremist anti-immigrant group came up with.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      You keep repeating this false claim. As I've pointed out, census data says 89% speak English very well or in the home. The only data that suggests otherwise is something an extremist anti-immigrant group came up with.
                      I never said all immigrants, I specifically said the "So-Called Dreamers."

                      I finally located my original post where I first brought this up.
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      The usual objection is that for all practical purposes all they've ever really known is America and sending them back home is tantamount to exiling them to a foreign land. The problem with that objection is that it appears that most are not trying to assimilate themselves into American society. A recent study revealed that 25% of those eligible for the DACA program can't speak any English at all. And almost half (46%) can barely manage a few words and simple phrases.

                      I think an exception should be made for those who have joined the military and helped to defend our country and those who have worked hard, stayed out of trouble and gone to college. They've shown they have something to offer.

                      IIRC, the study was conducted due to concerns that the assimilation of so-called Dreamers was being heavily exaggerated.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        ....

                        Now why folks from the ice box of Europe, who could have settled virtually anywhere in the country, all congregated in what is in effect the ice box of America is beyond me.
                        I think it proves insanity....
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          I think it proves insanity....
                          In the not too distant future hordes of Minnesotans, Wisconsinites, and Dakotans will begin increasingly larger raids into the states below. Soon the raids will occasionally won't be for plunder but for conquest with large portions of Nebraska being some of the first lands to fall.

                          But nobody noticed.

                          The rapid conquest of Michigan's Upper Peninsula was also ignored, but that changed with the sack of Chicago...

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment

                          Related Threads

                          Collapse

                          Topics Statistics Last Post
                          Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                          7 responses
                          52 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post rogue06
                          by rogue06
                           
                          Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                          42 responses
                          234 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post whag
                          by whag
                           
                          Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                          24 responses
                          104 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post Ronson
                          by Ronson
                           
                          Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                          33 responses
                          190 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post Roy
                          by Roy
                           
                          Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                          73 responses
                          315 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                          Working...
                          X