Sparko & Chrawnus,
Minorities internalizing self-hatred due to hearing and absorbing socially prevalent views about their own minority group is a massive problem for minority groups everywhere. It's not something easily visible to members of the majority group so it's easy to miss if you're not looking for it. However, members of the majority group tend to be familiar with the comparatively rare occurrences where a member of the minority group says something in public that is anti the majority group. But think for a moment just how many people are in the minority group compared to the ones publicly speaking out against the majority group - the anti-majority-group voices probably constitute less than one percent of one percent of the minority's population - you're merely hypersensitive to it because you're not used to receiving any criticism against your group so it sticks in your mind. So 99%+ of the minority group might be affected on some level or another by internalized self-hatred, but what gets repeated to you in your selected media is the <1% of them who say something nasty, or that can be construed as nasty, about the majority group.
Also it's worth noting that paranoid majority group members, including those on this forum, tend to willfully misinterpret statements by majority groups to be anti-majority when they aren't. The common example today is Black Lives Matter, which meant "Black Lives DO Matter, so cops should stop slaughtering black people and treating them as if they are worthless scum" in the minds of the creators of the movement, but which was willfully misinterpreted by the paranoid as "ONLY Black Lives Matter, White Lives DON'T" which would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
Well actually I was reading an article yesterday about conservative talker Tomi Lahren's ancestors. Surviving documentation demonstrates:
- Her great-great-grandmother spoke no English after at least 10 years in the US.
- Her great-grandmother still spoke German after at least 41 years in the US.
- Her great-grandfather's baptism in the US was recorded in Norwegian.
- (And, amusingly) Her great-great-grandfather was indicted by a US grand jury for forging his naturalization papers.
There's no particular reason to assume her family history is atypical in this regard. And, in fact, I presume it's well-known to the experts that this sort of thing was fairly normal in US history because a genealogist decided to go digging into her history the moment they heard her claim on TV:
Presumably the genealogists was familiar enough with typical patterns in historical American immigration to both know that claim was historically untrue and to think it fairly likely it could be demonstrated to be untrue for any particular American's family history.
Personally I had a great-grandfather who immigrated to this country from Prussia (Germany now) to escape the harsh conditions there at the time and came to NZ speaking not a word of English. But from what I understand he did learn English reasonably quickly and became a reasonably prosperous farmer.
Don't get me wrong: I am definitely a fan of immigrants learning the local language and believe that should be encouraged to the point of being mandatory, and likewise with them learning and fitting into the local culture. I am, on the whole, more against "multiculturalism" than I'm for it. But let's not pretend that immigrants "used to" be totally wonderful and integrate fast and that now they don't. Immigration has always been contentious throughout US history. There were times when to be Irish in American was what being Mexican is today.
The study that I can see the right-wing outlets touting online is from the CIS which is an organisation designed to create research with a goal of reducing immigration, so more than a tad of bias.
I've seen precisely the opposite complaint from progressive sources: Namely that a lot of people assume that the DACA group speak Spanish, when actually it is a group which largely can't speak Spanish and only speaks English and hence sending them 'back' to Spanish-speaking countries where they can't speak the language is absurd.
It would be an interesting study to do though for an unbiased survey. I see 2013 census data shows that 89% of US born Latinos answered the census question of how well they speak English as either "very well" or natively (spoken in the home). I guess a lot of them could be overstating their proficiency?
Er... so you're upset about what some website that probably nobody read said more than a decade ago? And California requires their students to learn English... a move I agree with... so the biggest and one of the most liberal states in the country requires the students to learn English... you seem to be somehow managing to turn this into a complaint?
Minorities internalizing self-hatred due to hearing and absorbing socially prevalent views about their own minority group is a massive problem for minority groups everywhere. It's not something easily visible to members of the majority group so it's easy to miss if you're not looking for it. However, members of the majority group tend to be familiar with the comparatively rare occurrences where a member of the minority group says something in public that is anti the majority group. But think for a moment just how many people are in the minority group compared to the ones publicly speaking out against the majority group - the anti-majority-group voices probably constitute less than one percent of one percent of the minority's population - you're merely hypersensitive to it because you're not used to receiving any criticism against your group so it sticks in your mind. So 99%+ of the minority group might be affected on some level or another by internalized self-hatred, but what gets repeated to you in your selected media is the <1% of them who say something nasty, or that can be construed as nasty, about the majority group.
Also it's worth noting that paranoid majority group members, including those on this forum, tend to willfully misinterpret statements by majority groups to be anti-majority when they aren't. The common example today is Black Lives Matter, which meant "Black Lives DO Matter, so cops should stop slaughtering black people and treating them as if they are worthless scum" in the minds of the creators of the movement, but which was willfully misinterpreted by the paranoid as "ONLY Black Lives Matter, White Lives DON'T" which would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
Originally posted by rogue06
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- Her great-great-grandmother spoke no English after at least 10 years in the US.
- Her great-grandmother still spoke German after at least 41 years in the US.
- Her great-grandfather's baptism in the US was recorded in Norwegian.
- (And, amusingly) Her great-great-grandfather was indicted by a US grand jury for forging his naturalization papers.
There's no particular reason to assume her family history is atypical in this regard. And, in fact, I presume it's well-known to the experts that this sort of thing was fairly normal in US history because a genealogist decided to go digging into her history the moment they heard her claim on TV:
"You don't just come into this country with low skills, low education, not understanding the language and come into our country because someone says it makes them feel nice. That's not what this country is based on." - Tomi Lahren on Fox News
Personally I had a great-grandfather who immigrated to this country from Prussia (Germany now) to escape the harsh conditions there at the time and came to NZ speaking not a word of English. But from what I understand he did learn English reasonably quickly and became a reasonably prosperous farmer.
Don't get me wrong: I am definitely a fan of immigrants learning the local language and believe that should be encouraged to the point of being mandatory, and likewise with them learning and fitting into the local culture. I am, on the whole, more against "multiculturalism" than I'm for it. But let's not pretend that immigrants "used to" be totally wonderful and integrate fast and that now they don't. Immigration has always been contentious throughout US history. There were times when to be Irish in American was what being Mexican is today.
I don't recall the study at the moment (although I've previously posted it) showing that even among the so-called "Dreamers" (the folks we are told who really want to become Americans and contribute to society), something like half can't be troubled to even learn more than just a few words in English.
I've seen precisely the opposite complaint from progressive sources: Namely that a lot of people assume that the DACA group speak Spanish, when actually it is a group which largely can't speak Spanish and only speaks English and hence sending them 'back' to Spanish-speaking countries where they can't speak the language is absurd.
It would be an interesting study to do though for an unbiased survey. I see 2013 census data shows that 89% of US born Latinos answered the census question of how well they speak English as either "very well" or natively (spoken in the home). I guess a lot of them could be overstating their proficiency?
For example, up until the middle of 2006, the Seattle Public Schools web site disparaged those seeking to acculturate as "giving up" their own culture. Similar things happened in California when they decided to start requiring students in the public skewls to learn English.
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