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Trying to Understand Analytical Presentation on Transcendental Argument (TAG)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    No they don't. The Law of Identity states that something is what it is and isn't what it is not. Something that exists has a specific nature. For example, an apple is that apple, and a rock is that rock. In other words, whatever is, is.
    So are you arguing because the laws of logic are not physical they have no existence?




    Why would one believe man-made myths and folk-lore?
    Because what is known to be true are not man-made myths. The genuine Christians know God. Nominal Christians and others do not.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      So are you arguing because the laws of logic are not physical they have no existence?
      No. I’m arguing that according to the Law of Identity whatever is, is. And without the existence of a physical universe there would be no Laws of Logic.

      Because what is known to be true are not man-made myths. The genuine Christians know God. Nominal Christians and others do not.
      What is “known to be true” is supported by reasonable evidence, not warm fuzzy feelings.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        No. I’m arguing that according to the Law of Identity whatever is, is. And without the existence of a physical universe there would be no Laws of Logic.
        Interestingly enough, Dennis Prager, in his commentary on Exodus, God's Name can be understood to mean "Is." While Dennis many not understand the meaning of God's Name just as I do, that God Himself is the uncaused Existence by which what is is. One of the key traits of being a genuine Christian is knowing God.


        What is “known to be true” is supported by reasonable evidence, not warm fuzzy feelings.
        That is right. And God is knowable - not being some warm fuzzy feeling.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          The laws of logic require Existence.
          You say so.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            The laws of logic require Existence. God being that Existence. (Exodus 3:14-15; Acts 17:28).
            I suspect that you are confusing Cosmological argument and Transcendental argument. Googling for "Presuppositionalism Ontology Epistemology" I found an article, written by a Christian, that explains this confusion: http://thereforegodexists.com/certai...positionalism/

            Let me quote:

            The difference between the epistemological and ontological element is subtle, but it is important to understanding the strengths and weaknesses of this argument. One may point out, “God is a necessary precondition to truth” and yet atheists (who do not believe in God) will still have access to these truths. They would merely be inconsistent. In contrast, when one begins to say, “You must first believe in God to have access to these truths” then you wander into the far less defensible epistemological element of the argument. So, is certainty of God a precondition to knowledge?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by nihilnihil View Post
              I suspect that you are confusing Cosmological argument and Transcendental argument. Googling for "Presuppositionalism Ontology Epistemology" I found an article, written by a Christian, that explains this confusion: http://thereforegodexists.com/certai...positionalism/

              Let me quote:
              The difference between the epistemological and ontological element is subtle, but it is important to understanding the strengths and weaknesses of this argument. One may point out, “God is a necessary precondition to truth” and yet atheists (who do not believe in God) will still have access to these truths. They would merely be inconsistent. In contrast, when one begins to say, “You must first believe in God to have access to these truths” then you wander into the far less defensible epistemological element of the argument. So, is certainty of God a precondition to knowledge?
              Ontological has to do with what exists. Cosmological has to do with order of cause. Epistemological has to do with how we know.

              God is the fundamental ontological truth of all self evident truth. Without which there can be nothing. And there was never nothing and there was always God (the uncaused Existence). Now there is a difference between existence and cause. They are not the same thing. Cause is contingent on there being existence.

              Uncaused Cause is not to be confused with uncaused Existence even though uncaused Cause is uncaused Existence too. Uncaused Cause is contingent on uncaused Existence. Those two being of a third in being of one Essence. The third being Essence for which they are One. Essence being an entity unto itself and the whole.

              Christians know God. God being the fundamental self evident truth of all self evident truth being [YHWH] the uncaused Existence (Exodus 3:14-15; Proverbs 21:30). The Word [Logos] being the sole agent of cause (John 1:3). And Christians know God through the gospel of grace (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:23-26; John 17:3; John 14:6; 1 John 4:7-8; etc). Christians know (John 7:16-17; 1 John 5:10; Romans 8:9, 16; John 4:24 etc).

              The lost have no clue (2 Corinthians 4:3-4). They, the lost need to comprehend the gospel of grace. And the on going reason they do not has to do with resisting God`s Spirit (John 16:8-9; like Acts 7:51).
              Last edited by 37818; 05-21-2018, 10:07 AM.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                That is right. And God is knowable - not being some warm fuzzy feeling.
                Why is God not knowable as you know God to everyone?

                Other than traditional claims based on ancient scripture and mythology from many different religions and various conflicting churches and sects I see no objective reason why fallible humans should 'know' God(s) as you claim to know God.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-21-2018, 10:34 AM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Why is God not knowable as you know God to everyone?
                  But He is.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    But He is.
                    How do you know that the way to know God is the way you "know God"? Many people believe differently.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      Ontological has to do with what exists. Cosmological has to do with order of cause. Epistemological has to do with how we know.

                      God is the fundamental ontological truth of all self evident truth. Without which there can be nothing. And there was never nothing and there was always God (the uncaused Existence). Now there is a difference between existence and cause. They are not the same thing. Cause is contingent on there being existence.

                      Uncaused Cause is not to be confused with uncaused Existence even though uncaused Cause is uncaused Existence too. Uncaused Cause is contingent on uncaused Existence. Those two being of a third in being of one Essence. The third being Essence for which they are One. Essence being an entity unto itself and the whole.

                      [...]
                      Thanks for clearing them up. I thought you were saying that laws of logic couldn't have existed unless it's created by God. Thus, the causality.

                      You are describing the concept of Aseity?

                      I did search on "Aseity" and "Transcendental Argument", which brought me to http://www.proginosko.com/2011/12/an...ery-other-ism/

                      In the post, the author argued the following:

                      (1) God does not exist. [assumption for reductio]
                      (2) It is true that God does not exist. [from (1)]
                      (3) There is at least one truth (namely, the truth that there is no God). [from (2)]
                      (4) If there are truths, they are divine thoughts.
                      (5) There is at least one divine thought. [from (3) and (4)]
                      (6) If there are divine thoughts, then God exists.
                      (7) Therefore, God exists. [from (5) and (6)]
                      Premise 4 looks like a leap of faith. But the author seemed to be using Plantinga's Modal Ontological argument to support premise 4. So, I guess this version of Transcendental Argument depends on Modal Ontological Argument to support its premise?

                      Here's Modal Ontological argument from Wikipedia:

                      1. A being has maximal excellence in a given possible world W if and only if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good in W; and
                      2. A being has maximal greatness if it has maximal excellence in every possible world.
                      3. It is possible that there is a being that has maximal greatness. (Premise)
                      4. Therefore, possibly, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good being exists.
                      5. Therefore, (by axiom S5) it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.
                      6. Therefore, an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.
                      I think I more or less understand this now. The way I see it, Plantinga's argument is:
                      1. The use of (modal) logic will inescapably leads to the conclusion that God exists
                      2. Non-theists use (modal) logic

                      Thus:
                      3A. Non-theists who use (modal) logic will inescapably be lead to the conclusion that God exists
                      3B. Non-theists who deny that God exists should not use (modal) logic

                      So, Transcendental Argument really is Plantinga's Modal Ontological Argument? I'll need some time to study modal logic and the argument though :)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        How do you know that the way to know God is the way you "know God"? Many people believe differently.
                        I discovered that I cannot honestly deny God. And the reason stems from the gospel of grace, which I have also found, those who profess not to believe in it, do not really understand what they think they deny.

                        I have yet to find anyone who can explain the gospel of grace who says it is not true. Deny it yes, but explain it no.

                        Back to the concept of God: God's Name and identity is that He is the self Existent one. One has to argue God is not God. Self existence is not self existence.


                        You say many. Can you cite one. And give that person's explanation and how you undnerstand it is different from my view?
                        Last edited by 37818; 05-22-2018, 08:29 AM.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          . . .

                          Other than traditional claims based on ancient scripture and mythology from many different religions and various conflicting churches and sects I see no objective reason why fallible humans should 'know' God(s) as you claim to know God.
                          Of course you don't. If you understood the gospel of grace you too could be a believer and know God too.

                          Review Romans 3:23-26. And tell me what you understand from it. Note, what John explains in 1 John 5:10, that one would have ". . . witness in himself . . . ." So does Paul to in his letter to the Roman church, Romans 8;16.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            But He is.
                            Actually, I 'believe' God is, but not 'He.' Nonetheless your claim has problems fro a reality perspective of the fallible human nature.

                            But, but, . . . but . . . but . . .

                            Not an adequate response. Still . . .

                            Why is God not knowable as you know God to everyone?

                            Other than traditional claims based on ancient scripture and mythology from many different religions and various conflicting churches and sects I see no objective reason why fallible humans should 'know' God(s) as you claim to know God.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Actually, I 'believe' God is, but not 'He.' Nonetheless your claim has problems fro a reality perspective of the fallible human nature.

                              But, but, . . . but . . . but . . .

                              Not an adequate response. Still . . .

                              Why is God not knowable as you know God to everyone?
                              But He is. By way of the gospel of grace which you have never yet understood.

                              Other than traditional claims based on ancient scripture and mythology from many different religions and various conflicting churches and sects I see no objective reason why fallible humans should 'know' God(s) as you claim to know God.
                              As I said, by way of the gospel of grace which you have not understood. God makes Himself known on His terms. Genuine Christians across many of the sects know God.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment

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