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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Abortion Is Equal To Murder?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Actually, I don't wonder why they leave at all. My experience is that I put forth arguments, and when people are unable to respond to them, they accuse me of "making my own definitions," or "refusing to look at new evidence," or "moving goal posts" or "being disingenuous" or any number of other ad hominem accusations, and then they leave. On the other hand, I disconnect from a discussion when I have repeated the same thing several times and it is still not being reflected back accurately. After a while, repeating the same thing again appears to be a singular waste of time.

    I have no doubt the perspective is different from the other side.
    Different is a vast understatement.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #62
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Different is a vast understatement.
      Undoubtedly...
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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      • #63
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        Human BEING, seer. It has to be a person to qualify as a being. Under construction or sitting on the launch pad is not the same thing.

        Imbued with spirit means air breathing. When it breathes it is a being.

        You do know that neither American law nor Scripture support this nonsense, right?
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          You do know that neither American law nor Scripture support this nonsense, right?
          You know he's trolling, right?
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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          • #65
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            The very beginning of the article here http://www.tektonics.org/af/abortion01.php :



            I do not see how abortion does not fall under that sort of category.
            O....kay...

            Naw, I got nothing...
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

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            • #66
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              You know he's trolling, right?
              Sure, but I'm still trying to give the benefit of the doubt. Admittedly, not particularly well here...
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

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              • #67
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                I spoke to Bnonn about this. Self defense would fall under a civil action since it is acceptable by law. So it would not be strictly personal since it would be unjust (by law) for someone to attempt to take your life.
                i think he's mistaken - self defense is very much personal to the one defending themselves and it isn't a civil action. If it's brought into question, it would almost certainly be in a criminal court (certainly most cases anyway). 'Acceptable by law' only opens a can of worms - abortion currently fits that definition so making an exception for self defense that way weakens the argument.

                I suspect to make it work he should consider abandoning 'personal' and using 'just'.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  You do know that neither American law nor Scripture support this nonsense, right?
                  You do know that is actually the Judaic interpretation, right? So apparently at least the OT supports this position, though I have to admit, I'm just citing what rabbinical thought reflects. I do not claim to be an OT expert. I'm assuming rabbinical scholars are.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                    Here's a related question, for pro-choicers or whoever would like to attempt an answer: why should I believe that human non-persons exist?
                    The question is a point can a human fetus be designated “a person” with all the rights of a person. For the Jews (and presumably for Jesus in the absence of anything to the contrary) it was when it took its first breath. For Roe v Wade the SCOTUS ruled that it was that point at “capability of meaningful life outside the mother’s womb, or viability”.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                      I suspect to make it work he should consider abandoning 'personal' and using 'just'.

                      Yes, I like that. So can we make the syllogism logically bulletproof?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        The very beginning of the article here http://www.tektonics.org/af/abortion01.php :



                        I do not see how abortion does not fall under that sort of category.
                        Yeah, this is definitely one area where I disagree with JPH. Sometimes I just don't understand how he doesn't see things like that.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                          The claim in the OP is that a Zygote is a Human Being. ‘Life’ is a different topic.
                          Ok...

                          What if a baby is born prematurely and cannot breathe on its own?

                          Is that a human being?

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            You do know that is actually the Judaic interpretation, right? So apparently at least the OT supports this position, though I have to admit, I'm just citing what rabbinical thought reflects. I do not claim to be an OT expert. I'm assuming rabbinical scholars are.
                            *A* Judaic interpretation. Rabbinical thought is not dogmatic, but speculative. The early church considered abortion to be murder, in stark contrast to the Hellenistic/Roman culture around it; thus they could only have come to that conclusion from their Jewish heritage - one earlier than the rabbinic period.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              *A* Judaic interpretation. Rabbinical thought is not dogmatic, but speculative. The early church considered abortion to be murder, in stark contrast to the Hellenistic/Roman culture around it; thus they could only have come to that conclusion from their Jewish heritage - one earlier than the rabbinic period.
                              My comment was about modern rabbinical thought. The comment was based on several conversations I had with local rabbis over the past couple years, and a few articles I had reviewed. Your post made me dig a bit more, and your "a" is apparently justified. There is a wide breadth of belief around abortion and its morality. It's pretty well summarized here. So my original statement about "rabbinical thought" was overly broad.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                                Human BEING, seer. It has to be a person to qualify as a being. Under construction or sitting on the launch pad is not the same thing.

                                Imbued with spirit means air breathing. When it breathes it is a being.
                                Law.com legal dictionary:
                                person
                                n. 1) a human being.


                                Dictionary.com
                                human being

                                noun
                                1. any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.
                                2. a person, especially as distinguished from other animals

                                A fetus is a human being. A human being is a person. Pretty simple FF.

                                Nothing about breathing.

                                Do you stop being a human being if you hold your breath?

                                What about divers who use oxygenated perfluorocarbon liquid while underwater? Are they still human?

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