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Cogito ergo sum

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Abortion Is Equal To Murder?

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    person
    n. 1) a human being.

    Human being:
    n. a person

    All human beings are persons.
    We are not talking about the dictionary definitions of “human” and “person” as you well know. We are talking about legal concepts of “personhood” and when a fetus becomes entitled to the protection and privileges of the law.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      We are not talking about the dictionary definitions of “human” and “person” as you well know. We are talking about legal concepts of “personhood” and when a fetus becomes entitled to the protection and privileges of the law.
      The only real purpose for a legal definition of personhood is to allow some persons to be declared non persons. It has been done often before.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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      • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
        The only real purpose for a legal definition of personhood is to allow some persons to be declared non persons. It has been done often before.
        Or, it is to determine who/what is entitled to protections under the law, and who/what is not. It includes trying to determine when someone is actually dead, because there are some gray areas. It also applies to the question, "when does personhood begin?" As we learn more about sentience in animals, as we develop AI, those questions will also come center stage.

        Hopefully, we are past excluding people because of skin color, ethnicity, sex, etc. But the price of that freedom is constant vigilance.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Or, it is to determine who/what is entitled to protections under the law, and who/what is not. It includes trying to determine when someone is actually dead, because there are some gray areas. It also applies to the question, "when does personhood begin?" As we learn more about sentience in animals, as we develop AI, those questions will also come center stage.

          Hopefully, we are past excluding people because of skin color, ethnicity, sex, etc. But the price of that freedom is constant vigilance.
          Theologically at conception. Yet we know that right after cells begin dividing, if a cell or cells separate we get what are called identical twines. Now the Mosaic Law defines murder in terms of killing a human in distinction to killing some other animal, a human being of the creation being made in God's image. Now also according to the Mosaic Law the life, that is the soul is in the flesh by way of the blood. And the blood, the life, the soul which it provides the flesh is sacred whether human or animal. The Mosaic Law required Israel to present the blood of any animal that was killed to the Temple to the God of Israel. . . .

          Distinct souls of a human is not evident until there is blood to distinguish the person. (Identical twines, case in point.)

          Now it is known that the human has his/her own blood separate from the mother by and after the 17th day of conception. So without question abortion is murder at that point on according to the Mosaic Law.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Theologically at conception. Yet we know that right after cells begin dividing, if a cell or cells separate we get what are called identical twines. Now the Mosaic Law defines murder in terms of killing a human in distinction to killing some other animal, a human being of the creation being made in God's image. Now also according to the Mosaic Law the life, that is the soul is in the flesh by way of the blood. And the blood, the life, the soul which it provides the flesh is sacred whether human or animal. The Mosaic Law required Israel to present the blood of any animal that was killed to the Temple to the God of Israel. . . .

            Distinct souls of a human is not evident until there is blood to distinguish the person. (Identical twines, case in point.)

            Now it is known that the human has his/her own blood separate from the mother by and after the 17th day of conception. So without question abortion is murder at that point on according to the Mosaic Law.
            Last I checked, I was living under U.S. law. But thanks for providing some background I was unfamiliar with. Always nice to learn something.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Last I checked, I was living under U.S. law. But thanks for providing some background I was unfamiliar with. Always nice to learn something.
              Yes. I am of a minority opinion that abortion should be allowed only within the first 2 weeks of conception. And after the two weeks, someone should be prosecuted for the murder of the child. And the required evidence would not exist until by at least the 17th day. As to who would be prosecuted that would have to be decided in some way. I have my ideas.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Yes. I am of a minority opinion that abortion should be allowed only within the first 2 weeks of conception. And after the two weeks, someone should be prosecuted for the murder of the child. And the required evidence would not exist until by at least the 17th day. As to who would be prosecuted that would have to be decided in some way. I have my ideas.
                It is not an idea I can get behind. But I understand your rationale. I think we should be acting before the pregnancy to put measures in place that make this choice rare/unlikely.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post

                  I do not consider myself to be pro life. That term has been hijacked by the pro abortion party with so many dumb things added to make it useless. I am anti abortion. Anti abortion folks have done so much to make "unwanted" babies wanted and supported. The dishonest claim that anti abortionists don't care about the baby after it is not aborted is just that - dishonest. In other words it is a lie flat out.
                  I think this mindset is part of what's wrong with the pro-life movement. They spend almost all their time talking about what they're against and hardly any talking about what they are for. So many pro-life Christians quietly do a lot in adopting kids, helping pregnant single mothers, etc., but the focus on a political level seems to just be about banning abortion. We need more of a focus on being in favor of such things as families, helping those who need it, etc. Identifying just as anti-something isn't going to help, especially when there are pregnant women out there in dire situations.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    I think this mindset is part of what's wrong with the pro-life movement. They spend almost all their time talking about what they're against and hardly any talking about what they are for. So many pro-life Christians quietly do a lot in adopting kids, helping pregnant single mothers, etc., but the focus on a political level seems to just be about banning abortion. We need more of a focus on being in favor of such things as families, helping those who need it, etc. Identifying just as anti-something isn't going to help, especially when there are pregnant women out there in dire situations.
                    Here...here...
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      The only real purpose for a legal definition of personhood is to allow some persons to be declared non persons. It has been done often before.
                      That's simply not true, the "real purpose for a definition of Personhood is to provide reasonable guidelines in law for the protection of individuals. Currently, in the US, this is generally when the life of the fetus is its own and therefore subject to being protected by the state.
                      Last edited by Tassman; 05-20-2018, 12:28 AM.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        It is not an idea I can get behind. But I understand your rationale. I think we should be acting before the pregnancy to put measures in place that make this choice rare/unlikely.
                        Well from the theological perspective that the human life begins from conception. Maybe it should be considered that rape in which it results in a pregnancy become statutory murder by reason that it could result in the death of a human being.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Well from the theological perspective that the human life begins from conception. Maybe it should be considered that rape in which it results in a pregnancy become statutory murder by reason that it could result in the death of a human being.
                          I think we have adequate laws against rape. We need more cooperation to further reduce unwanted pregnancies.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I think we all agree that they are human from the moment of conception. Frankly, a human sperm and egg are "human." To be human, you simply need human DNA. A severed human thumb is "human." A corpse of a human being is "human."

                            "Human being" is synonymous with "person" or "human personal" and suggests a distinct individual with rights. It takes us out of science and into philosophy, law, and religion.

                            That being said, we are not always all that precise with our language, we humans.
                            Actually, no, language usage does not bear this out. In both cases human is the adjective standing in the place of the noun - HOWEVER - in vernacular English human alone is ALWAYS understood as 'human being' and never as human body part. This is not a rational position.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

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                            • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              I think this mindset is part of what's wrong with the pro-life movement. They spend almost all their time talking about what they're against and hardly any talking about what they are for. So many pro-life Christians quietly do a lot in adopting kids, helping pregnant single mothers, etc., but the focus on a political level seems to just be about banning abortion. We need more of a focus on being in favor of such things as families, helping those who need it, etc. Identifying just as anti-something isn't going to help, especially when there are pregnant women out there in dire situations.
                              This strikes me as a straw man. It's also pointless - being 'pro' family DOES NOT CHANGE LAW. Since the political movement is about changing law, you're effectively criticizing them for not hamstringing themselves politically.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                This strikes me as a straw man. It's also pointless - being 'pro' family DOES NOT CHANGE LAW. Since the political movement is about changing law, you're effectively criticizing them for not hamstringing themselves politically.
                                I don't see in the slightest how it is a strawman. Justified or not, there is a perception that pro-life people don't actually care about women. (And frankly, many of the leading pro-life advocates do come across as heartless. One of the top ones berated me publicly on Facebook for not supporting the execution of homosexuals.) Imaging matters whether you like it or not.
                                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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