Originally posted by firstfloor
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Abortion Is Equal To Murder?
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostI really hope we don’t need to get into the exact details of breathing; do we? Mind you, I’m sure there’s a certain amount of danger in that type of activity. I read that one Reiss Morgan died in 2009 trying to break a record.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by element771 View PostThat is without medical intervention. Does medical intervention count as breathing? In other words, is a baby that has not taken its own breath but is kept alive by a machine a human being?“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI think your problem is linking the definition of "human being" to "breathing." A human being needs to breathe, no question about it. I don't think "breathing," however, can be made the deciding factor between whether one does or does not qualify as a "human being."“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostI suggest it is about reaching the summit as opposed to being on the slope. There is a special name for those who reach the top. That is why personhood is not given to everything.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI don't see how that responds to my post.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostI really hope we don’t need to get into the exact details of breathing; do we?
Mind you, I’m sure there’s a certain amount of danger in that type of activity. I read that one Reiss Morgan died in 2009 trying to break a record.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostBreathing is a convenient marker of the very special event that is child birth. At that point, the entity becomes person.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostYes, yes. I would like to assure you that artificial breathing is still breathing.
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostOf course not. It's an arbitrary biological function that is no less or more important than others to the sustainment of a human life, although one not required before delivery.
Someone could just as easy choose a beating heart to be THE sign of personhood.
If that is the case, a 6 weeks old fetus is a human person.
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Originally posted by element771 View PostSo if we advance in medial tech enough for us to be able to breathe for a 15 week old fetus and keep it alive until it is fully developed, that 15 week old fetus would be a human being?
My question to FF was to make the following point: if a person who suffers major lung/heart damage and is kept alive by a heart/lung machine is still a person, why then is a fetus in the womb, who's heart/lung machine is a human person, any less a person?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostZYGOTE, Sparko, for that is the subject, nothing bigger.
Often the word autonomous is used to define person. A zygote is a single cell. About 30% are eventually born. Those zygotes that die (it is a brief life) are completely anonymous. They didn’t even make it to the first step of the long climb towards Human Being.
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostI really hope we don’t need to get into the exact details of breathing; do we? Mind you, I’m sure there’s a certain amount of danger in that type of activity. I read that one Reiss Morgan died in 2009 trying to break a record.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI think the issue is deeper than this. If "artificial breathing" still counts, as is implied here, then a case can be made that, from the moment of implantation, the "artificial breathing" source is the mother's body. She is playing the role of the heart/lung machine until the fetus' heart takes over, and then just the lungs until the baby breathes for the first time.
My question to FF was to make the following point: if a person who suffers major lung/heart damage and is kept alive by a heart/lung machine is still a person, why then is a fetus in the womb, who's heart/lung machine is a human person, any less a person?
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Originally posted by element771 View PostSo this is where I break from my Christian brothers and sisters. I don't base my view on abortion on the Bible. I base it on my scientific background and my conscience (obviously I believe that my conscience is rooted in God's distinction between good and evil). I could become an atheist tomorrow and would still not agree with those that are pro-choice.
I just want consistency. For example, some people opposed to research using fetal derived stem cells are fine with in vitro fertilization. This is not consistent. For in vitro fertilization, often a dozen or so eggs are fertilized. Several are implanted in an effort to impregnate a female. If implantation is successful, those fertilized eggs are then kept frozen indefinitely or are discarded. To me, this two positions are juxtaposed to one another.
I also don't agree with the Roe V Wade definition. There are several groups of people that cannot have a meaningful life outside of a mother's womb BUT if they were killed...it would be murder plain and simple.
Also, the legal system isn't consistent either. For example, a woman can take the abortion pill if she decides to terminate a pregnancy. However, there was a case where a man slipped this pill into his girlfriend's drink in order to cause an abortion. Now, he should have only been charged with endangering his girlfriend by slipping something into her drink. He was also charged with premeditate murder of a fetus. If it is just a ball of cells, why would be charged with murder?
I do not consider myself to be pro life. That term has been hijacked by the pro abortion party with so many dumb things added to make it useless. I am anti abortion. Anti abortion folks have done so much to make "unwanted" babies wanted and supported. The dishonest claim that anti abortionists don't care about the baby after it is not aborted is just that - dishonest. In other words it is a lie flat out.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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