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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Abortion Is Equal To Murder?

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  • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    This is a valuable contribution. I was convinced that abortion was wrong years before I became a Christian. My faith has supported that conviction, but had nothing to do with it becoming MY conviction.

    I do not consider myself to be pro life. That term has been hijacked by the pro abortion party with so many dumb things added to make it useless. I am anti abortion. Anti abortion folks have done so much to make "unwanted" babies wanted and supported. The dishonest claim that anti abortionists don't care about the baby after it is not aborted is just that - dishonest. In other words it is a lie flat out.
    I will stay away from the second part of your post - but I concur with the first. Abortion is a travesty. We should be taking more action to make the occurrence of this in our society rare. I doubt we can ever get to non-existent, but close would be nice.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    • Forensically after the 17th day of conception it would be possible to be deemed murder. But at this time the law . . . .
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        You do know that is actually the Judaic interpretation, right? So apparently at least the OT supports this position, though I have to admit, I'm just citing what rabbinical thought reflects. I do not claim to be an OT expert. I'm assuming rabbinical scholars are.
        You can find 'scholars' for almost anything - but this flies in the face of Levitical law.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Yes, I like that. So can we make the syllogism logically bulletproof?
          I'm hesitant to call anything bulletproof but it would be far stronger in my opinion.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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          • Originally posted by element771 View Post
            Ok...

            What if a baby is born prematurely and cannot breathe on its own?

            Is that a human being?
            Legally yes. In reality, the law recognizes the humanity of the child - the legal issue is 'personhood' which is defined arbitrarily (why should 21 weeks, one day make a child more of a person than 20 weeks,6 days?).

            Science gives us the same answer (not surprising since law stole it from science) - there is never a time when a human child is not human. From zygote to 99 yr old geezer - all human, all the time both in law ans science.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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            • Originally posted by element771 View Post
              The problem that I have noticed that occurs when people start trying to qualify when a human is "alive" (or a human being) is that their criteria often apply to humans with disabilities, infants, people in comas, people with severe brain damage, etc.

              I don't think that they would advocate that a person that is in a coma on life support is no longer a human being.
              BINGO!!!! This is exactly what's wrong with the currant legal status.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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              • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                Obviously it is. Breath is life. If it lives, it breathes. Human Beings failing to breathe for several minutes transition to corpse.
                Um, no. All life has some form of respiration but not all life breathes. Fish don't, plants don't and nothing without lungs (like single celled organisms) - yet all are alive and do have respiration.

                First grade science class for the win!!!!
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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                • Originally posted by element771 View Post
                  So this is where I break from my Christian brothers and sisters. I don't base my view on abortion on the Bible. I base it on my scientific background and my conscience (obviously I believe that my conscience is rooted in God's distinction between good and evil). I could become an atheist tomorrow and would still not agree with those that are pro-choice.

                  I just want consistency. For example, some people opposed to research using fetal derived stem cells are fine with in vitro fertilization. This is not consistent. For in vitro fertilization, often a dozen or so eggs are fertilized. Several are implanted in an effort to impregnate a female. If implantation is successful, those fertilized eggs are then kept frozen indefinitely or are discarded. To me, this two positions are juxtaposed to one another.

                  I also don't agree with the Roe V Wade definition. There are several groups of people that cannot have a meaningful life outside of a mother's womb BUT if they were killed...it would be murder plain and simple.

                  Also, the legal system isn't consistent either. For example, a woman can take the abortion pill if she decides to terminate a pregnancy. However, there was a case where a man slipped this pill into his girlfriend's drink in order to cause an abortion. Now, he should have only been charged with endangering his girlfriend by slipping something into her drink. He was also charged with premeditate murder of a fetus. If it is just a ball of cells, why would be charged with murder?

                  FYI - Roe used the semester system to determine when the state had the right to intervene - not to define the right to live. Weird (and wrong) yes - but the issue there is when the mother's rights supersede her child's (still stupid, still wrong). This is why the goalpost is a moving target and always has been.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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                  • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    I suggest it is about reaching the summit as opposed to being on the slope. There is a special name for those who reach the top. That is why personhood is not given to everything.
                    Not even Roe defines personhood even remotely like this - the state in Roe had the right to intervene (prevent the abortion) in the second trimester - long before breathing air was at issue.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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                    • Originally posted by element771 View Post
                      I agree with BtC

                      Someone could just as easy choose a beating heart to be THE sign of personhood.

                      If that is the case, a 6 weeks old fetus is a human person.
                      I have to disagree - the state should not get to tell us when a human being ceases to be a person - you hit this yourself earlier. If the state can say Baby isn't a Baby until it's heart first beats then the state can also say Granny isn't a human when she can no longer figure out how to eat Cheerios.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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                      • Originally posted by element771 View Post
                        That is without medical intervention. Does medical intervention count as breathing? In other words, is a baby that has not taken its own breath but is kept alive by a machine a human being?
                        They are "human beings" from the moment of conception, that's not the issue. The issue is whether not they are "persons" with all the rights and privileges that go with it.

                        Traditionally, for the Jews (and presumably Jesus), this was when it took its first breath. For Roe v Wade the SCOTUS ruled that it was that point at “capability of meaningful life outside the mother’s womb, or viability”. This is the majority view of the populace. It is only relatively recently that the evangelical movement came to oppose abortion and regard its total banning as a litmus test for true Evangelicals.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          I have to disagree - the state should not get to tell us when a human being ceases to be a person - you hit this yourself earlier. If the state can say Baby isn't a Baby until it's heart first beats then the state can also say Granny isn't a human when she can no longer figure out how to eat Cheerios.
                          I was not suggesting that this position be taken. This was a critique of FF's argument about breathing. My point was that breathing was an arbitrary characteristic that FF chose that was necessary for life. You could just as easily choose any other characteristic such as heart beat.

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                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            They are "human beings" from the moment of conception, that's not the issue. The issue is whether not they are "persons" with all the rights and privileges that go with it.

                            Traditionally, for the Jews (and presumably Jesus), this was when it took its first breath. For Roe v Wade the SCOTUS ruled that it was that point at “capability of meaningful life outside the mother’s womb, or viability”. This is the majority view of the populace. It is only relatively recently that the evangelical movement came to oppose abortion and regard its total banning as a litmus test for true Evangelicals.

                            This human being terminology was not one that I wanted to use. It was terminology that FF was using that I had to switch to in order for him to answer my question.

                            I also indicated earlier that the Bible is not the source of my definition of at what stage of development that the fetus becomes a person with all of the rights and privileges that go with it.

                            Also, I am not concerned with the Evangelical movement nor what they view to be a litmus test for anything. IMO, a large number of them appear to be paralleling the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

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                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              They are "human beings" from the moment of conception, that's not the issue. The issue is whether not they are "persons" with all the rights and privileges that go with it.


                              person
                              n. 1) a human being.

                              Human being:
                              n. a person

                              All human beings are persons.

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                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                They are "human beings" from the moment of conception, that's not the issue. The issue is whether not they are "persons" with all the rights and privileges that go with it.

                                Traditionally, for the Jews (and presumably Jesus), this was when it took its first breath. For Roe v Wade the SCOTUS ruled that it was that point at “capability of meaningful life outside the mother’s womb, or viability”. This is the majority view of the populace. It is only relatively recently that the evangelical movement came to oppose abortion and regard its total banning as a litmus test for true Evangelicals.
                                I think we all agree that they are human from the moment of conception. Frankly, a human sperm and egg are "human." To be human, you simply need human DNA. A severed human thumb is "human." A corpse of a human being is "human."

                                "Human being" is synonymous with "person" or "human personal" and suggests a distinct individual with rights. It takes us out of science and into philosophy, law, and religion.

                                That being said, we are not always all that precise with our language, we humans.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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