Abortion Is Equal To Murder?

[element771]

Obviously it is. Breath is life. If it lives, it breathes. Human Beings failing to breathe for several minutes transition to corpse.

That is without medical intervention. Does medical intervention count as breathing? In other words, is a baby that has not taken its own breath but is kept alive by a machine a human being?

[carpedm9587]

I really hope we don’t need to get into the exact details of breathing; do we? Mind you, I’m sure there’s a certain amount of danger in that type of activity. I read that one Reiss Morgan died in 2009 trying to break a record.

I think your problem is linking the definition of "human being" to "breathing." A human being needs to breathe, no question about it. I don't think "breathing," however, can be made the deciding factor between whether one does or does not qualify as a "human being."

[firstfloor]

That is without medical intervention. Does medical intervention count as breathing? In other words, is a baby that has not taken its own breath but is kept alive by a machine a human being?

Yes, yes. I would like to assure you that artificial breathing is still breathing.

[firstfloor]

I think your problem is linking the definition of "human being" to "breathing." A human being needs to breathe, no question about it. I don't think "breathing," however, can be made the deciding factor between whether one does or does not qualify as a "human being."

I suggest it is about reaching the summit as opposed to being on the slope. There is a special name for those who reach the top. That is why personhood is not given to everything.

[carpedm9587]

I suggest it is about reaching the summit as opposed to being on the slope. There is a special name for those who reach the top. That is why personhood is not given to everything.

I don't see how that responds to my post.

[firstfloor]

I don't see how that responds to my post.

Breathing is a convenient marker of the very special event that is child birth. At that point, the entity becomes person.

[Bill the Cat]

I really hope we don’t need to get into the exact details of breathing; do we?

Of course not. It's an arbitrary biological function that is no less or more important than others to the sustainment of a human life, although one not required before delivery. A headless cadaver can be kept artificially breathing for an indeterminate amount of time with machines should a sicko be so inclined.

Mind you, I’m sure there’s a certain amount of danger in that type of activity. I read that one Reiss Morgan died in 2009 trying to break a record.

Of course it is. Doesn't mean that "stopping breathing" for a few minutes means death.

[carpedm9587]

Breathing is a convenient marker of the very special event that is child birth. At that point, the entity becomes person.

So if a person is critically injured and on a heart-lung machine with oxygen being put into their blood by a means other than their own lungs - is that person no longer human?

[element771]

Yes, yes. I would like to assure you that artificial breathing is still breathing.

So if we advance in medial tech enough for us to be able to breathe for a 15 week old fetus and keep it alive until it is fully developed, that 15 week old fetus would be a human being?

[element771]

Of course not. It's an arbitrary biological function that is no less or more important than others to the sustainment of a human life, although one not required before delivery.

I agree with BtC

Someone could just as easy choose a beating heart to be THE sign of personhood.

If that is the case, a 6 weeks old fetus is a human person.

[carpedm9587]

So if we advance in medial tech enough for us to be able to breathe for a 15 week old fetus and keep it alive until it is fully developed, that 15 week old fetus would be a human being?

I think the issue is deeper than this. If "artificial breathing" still counts, as is implied here, then a case can be made that, from the moment of implantation, the "artificial breathing" source is the mother's body. She is playing the role of the heart/lung machine until the fetus' heart takes over, and then just the lungs until the baby breathes for the first time.

My question to FF was to make the following point: if a person who suffers major lung/heart damage and is kept alive by a heart/lung machine is still a person, why then is a fetus in the womb, who's heart/lung machine is a human person, any less a person?

[Sparko]

ZYGOTE, Sparko, for that is the subject, nothing bigger.
Often the word autonomous is used to define person. A zygote is a single cell. About 30% are eventually born. Those zygotes that die (it is a brief life) are completely anonymous. They didn’t even make it to the first step of the long climb towards Human Being.

A human zygote is an individual of the human species at a specific stage in his/her life. Everyone went through it. Just because some people die at various stages of their life doesn't mean they were not people before they died. That is a stupid argument.

[Sparko]

I really hope we don’t need to get into the exact details of breathing; do we? Mind you, I’m sure there’s a certain amount of danger in that type of activity. I read that one Reiss Morgan died in 2009 trying to break a record.

People have been put on heart/lung bypass machines and were alive without breathing or a heartbeat. Were they human beings during that time?

[element771]

I think the issue is deeper than this. If "artificial breathing" still counts, as is implied here, then a case can be made that, from the moment of implantation, the "artificial breathing" source is the mother's body. She is playing the role of the heart/lung machine until the fetus' heart takes over, and then just the lungs until the baby breathes for the first time.

My question to FF was to make the following point: if a person who suffers major lung/heart damage and is kept alive by a heart/lung machine is still a person, why then is a fetus in the womb, who's heart/lung machine is a human person, any less a person?

Oh I agree, I just stuck with the fetal breathing point.

[Jedidiah]

So this is where I break from my Christian brothers and sisters. I don't base my view on abortion on the Bible. I base it on my scientific background and my conscience (obviously I believe that my conscience is rooted in God's distinction between good and evil). I could become an atheist tomorrow and would still not agree with those that are pro-choice.

I just want consistency. For example, some people opposed to research using fetal derived stem cells are fine with in vitro fertilization. This is not consistent. For in vitro fertilization, often a dozen or so eggs are fertilized. Several are implanted in an effort to impregnate a female. If implantation is successful, those fertilized eggs are then kept frozen indefinitely or are discarded. To me, this two positions are juxtaposed to one another.

I also don't agree with the Roe V Wade definition. There are several groups of people that cannot have a meaningful life outside of a mother's womb BUT if they were killed...it would be murder plain and simple.

Also, the legal system isn't consistent either. For example, a woman can take the abortion pill if she decides to terminate a pregnancy. However, there was a case where a man slipped this pill into his girlfriend's drink in order to cause an abortion. Now, he should have only been charged with endangering his girlfriend by slipping something into her drink. He was also charged with premeditate murder of a fetus. If it is just a ball of cells, why would be charged with murder?

This is a valuable contribution. I was convinced that abortion was wrong years before I became a Christian. My faith has supported that conviction, but had nothing to do with it becoming MY conviction.

I do not consider myself to be pro life. That term has been hijacked by the pro abortion party with so many dumb things added to make it useless. I am anti abortion. Anti abortion folks have done so much to make "unwanted" babies wanted and supported. The dishonest claim that anti abortionists don't care about the baby after it is not aborted is just that - dishonest. In other words it is a lie flat out.