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Cogito ergo sum

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Abortion Is Equal To Murder?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    This is a syllogism by a cyber friend from New Zealand, Bnonn Tennant. I think the logic is solid.

    1.It is wrong to kill another human being for personal reasons (because it is murder)

    2.A human zygote or fetus is a human being

    3.Therefore, it is wrong to kill a human zygote or fetus for personal reasons

    https://bnonn.com/why-abortion-is-ir...ent-to-murder/

    Um, wouldn't 'self defense' be by definition a 'personal reason'?

    Murder is the willful killing of another human being without just cause, in law usually with malice aforethought. When people use 'murder' it's rarely contextually about second degree or lesser offenses - which is why I'm using a general definition of first degree here. Regardless, tacking on 'because it is murder' doesn't fix the problem.

    So no, it's not sound. Needs works. But it's a good start.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      The law has no bearing on whether or not it is murder. (This is where I disagree with J.P. Holding, when he argues that "thou shalt not murder" is not relevant as a Bible verse condemning abortion.)
      I kinda disagree here but only because the laws legalizing abortion don't past the sniff test - they rest on contrived legal fictions which means that in our Constitutional system, they aren't just laws and therefore aren't arbiters of the definition. I'm confused about what the heck JP is arguing - how would an unjust law not be relevant?
      Last edited by Teallaura; 05-15-2018, 02:51 AM.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

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      • #18
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        Tosh and nonsense, sentimental garbage of the first order. Human beings are air breathing. A zygote has zero intrinsic value. The anti-abortion movement has always and forever been about punishing women for having sex outside of marriage - punishment they do not visit on the men involved.
        Nothing in that has any basis in reality or law - you are actually undermining the argument for abortion.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

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        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          So a human zygote is not, well, human?
          According to Roe v Wade, it is human.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            Abortion is equivalent to murder. The only reason it is not actually murder is that the law makes abortion an exception.
            Abortion is murder - the Court erred. That means that it may be legal but that is based on an error - one the Court will eventually correct (remember it took the Court a considerable time to correct the slavery related errors as well - and means that like abortion, slavery should not have been deemed constitutional EVER).
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Um, wouldn't 'self defense' be by definition a 'personal reason'?

              Murder is the willful killing of another human being without just cause, in law usually with malice aforethought. When people use 'murder' it's rarely contextually about second degree or lesser offenses - which is why I'm using a general definition of first degree here. Regardless, tacking on 'because it is murder' doesn't fix the problem.

              So no, it's not sound. Needs works. But it's a good start.
              I spoke to Bnonn about this. Self defense would fall under a civil action since it is acceptable by law. So it would not be strictly personal since it would be unjust (by law) for someone to attempt to take your life.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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              • #22
                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                Tosh and nonsense, sentimental garbage of the first order. Human beings are air breathing. A zygote has zero intrinsic value. The anti-abortion movement has always and forever been about punishing women for having sex outside of marriage - punishment they do not visit on the men involved.
                The underlined is a perfect description for the text that follows it.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  If a pregnant woman flies on an airliner, does she buy two tickets or just one? To be a human being you need at least to be born. Before that, it is someone’s pregnancy and is not a thing of itself in the world among the other animals.
                  God, you are stupid.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                    What definition of "human being" are you using to restrict it to air breathing?
                    That's the problem with syllogisms like this. It's using a philosophical term like "person" or "human being" instead of "unique member of our species".
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                    • #25
                      Wrong place for this thread. The moderator needs to move this to Pro Life Activism 301.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Wrong place for this thread. The moderator needs to move this to Pro Life Activism 301.
                        Wrong. It is a philosophical question, not any sort to activism.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by element771 View Post
                          Wrong. It is a philosophical question, not any sort to activism.
                          Disagree, seer is proposing a pro life activist position. Everything is not philosophy just to suit indivdual agendas.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Wrong place for this thread. The moderator needs to move this to Pro Life Activism 301.
                            Pro Life Activism does NOT allow debate. It does not belong there.
                            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Disagree, seer is proposing a pro life activist position. Everything is not philosophy just to suit indivdual agendas.
                              He is asking about a philosophical argument about abortion.

                              What is up with you and "individual agendas"?

                              Instead of pretending to understand cosmology, you should read up on psychological projection.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                                If a pregnant woman flies on an airliner, does she buy two tickets or just one?
                                Wow. I never thought of that argument. You have won the internet. Congrats. Why hasn't anyone else ever thought of that point? The Airline Seat argument.


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