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Cogito ergo sum

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Abortion Is Equal To Murder?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
    A woman with an infant likewise buys only one ticket. Does that mean an infant isn't a human being, either?
    not according to Starlight!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      God, you are stupid.
      Why are you calling God stupid?

      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        That is just stupid FF, even for you. Do you really believe that a baby one day away from birth is not human? What is it? A plant?
        Human BEING, seer. It has to be a person to qualify as a being. Under construction or sitting on the launch pad is not the same thing.

        Imbued with spirit means air breathing. When it breathes it is a being.
        Last edited by firstfloor; 05-15-2018, 03:31 PM.
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

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        • #34
          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          Human BEING, seer. It has to be a person to qualify as a being. Under construction or sitting on the launch pad is not the same thing.

          Imbued with spirit means air breathing. When it breathes it is a being.
          What if a baby is born prematurely and cannot breathe on its own?

          Is that a life?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            This is a syllogism by a cyber friend from New Zealand, Bnonn Tennant. I think the logic is solid.

            1.It is wrong to kill another human being for personal reasons (because it is murder)

            2.A human zygote or fetus is a human being

            3.Therefore, it is wrong to kill a human zygote or fetus for personal reasons

            https://bnonn.com/why-abortion-is-ir...ent-to-murder/
            I think pro-choice advocates would suggest that the syllogism fails on Premise 2. They acknowledge that the zygote/fetus is human - as they would that a thumb is human. They dispute that it is a human being, which is a philosophical claim, not a scientific one.

            For myself, I agree that the implanted zygote/fetus is a human being and it is immoral to destroy it with very few exceptions (basically the same exceptions that apply to any human life).
            Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-15-2018, 04:29 PM.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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            • #36
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Why are you calling God stupid?

              Oh I completely missed that...
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I think abortion advocates would suggest that the syllogism fails on Premise 2. They acknowledge that the zygote/fetus is human - as they would that a thumb is human. They dispute that it is a human being, which is a philosophical claim, not a scientific one.

                For myself, I agree that the implanted zygote/fetus is a human being and it is immoral to destroy it with very few exceptions (basically the same exceptions that apply to any human life).
                (assuming you're not in devil's advocate mode for the bolded statement)

                How is that a philosophical claim? A human fetus is a human being; it is not human in the sense that a thumb is human. Or, it's human in the noun sense as well as the adjective sense, not just the adjective sense. To claim otherwise is nonsense.
                I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                  (assuming you're not in devil's advocate mode for the bolded statement)

                  How is that a philosophical claim?
                  "Human" is a matter of examining the DNA and determining if it is or is not human. Both the thumb and the zygote are "human." "Human being" as to do with personhood (i.e., when do we have a distinct person). Personhood is not a scientific claim - it is a philosophical one that takes into account what a "person" is and when it begins. If a "person" requires the ability to reason, you get one answer. If it involves the ability to breathe, you get another. If it involves the ability to function independently, you get yet another answer.

                  Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                  A human fetus is a human being; it is not human in the sense that a thumb is human. Or, it's human in the noun sense as well as the adjective sense, not just the adjective sense. To claim otherwise is nonsense.
                  Apparently to you. To me, a distinct human being exists when a being with a unique/distinct DNA is on a path to viability (i.e., implantation). But some say it happens when you have a discernible heartbeat. Some say it is when you have a discernible EEG. Some it is when you have a life capable of independent living (i.e., breathing, eating, etc.). Same say it is when you have a unique DNA only. Every definition has its strengths/weaknesses. They all depend on the definition of "human being" rather than merely the definition of "human."
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    "Human" is a matter of examining the DNA and determining if it is or is not human. Both the thumb and the zygote are "human." "Human being" as to do with personhood (i.e., when do we have a distinct person). Personhood is not a scientific claim - it is a philosophical one that takes into account what a "person" is and when it begins. If a "person" requires the ability to reason, you get one answer. If it involves the ability to breathe, you get another. If it involves the ability to function independently, you get yet another answer.



                    Apparently to you. To me, a distinct human being exists when a being with a unique/distinct DNA is on a path to viability (i.e., implantation). But some say it happens when you have a discernible heartbeat. Some say it is when you have a discernible EEG. Some it is when you have a life capable of independent living (i.e., breathing, eating, etc.). Same say it is when you have a unique DNA only. Every definition has its strengths/weaknesses. They all depend on the definition of "human being" rather than merely the definition of "human."
                    I never mentioned "personhood." Why does "human being" have to equal "person?"

                    A fetus is a human being in the sense that it is a distinct member of the species (unlike a severed thumb; hence, noun sense vs adjective sense). This is undeniable. To claim otherwise is hogwash* and deserves no serious response. To try to redefine "human being" as equivalent to "person" seems...highly suspect, to me.



                    *I'd use a stronger word but I'd get in trouble.
                    Last edited by Zymologist; 05-15-2018, 04:42 PM.
                    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Here's a related question, for pro-choicers or whoever would like to attempt an answer: why should I believe that human non-persons exist?
                      I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                        I never mentioned "personhood." Why does "human being" have to equal "person?"
                        You didn't - but that is the implication. "Human" is a scientific principle. When something that is human is a distinct "being" is not.

                        Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                        A fetus is a human being in the sense that it is a distinct member of the species (unlike a severed thumb; hence, noun sense vs adjective sense).
                        You and I are in agreement on this.

                        Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                        This is undeniable.
                        We are not in agreement on this. You and I (apparently) agree on what it takes to be a "human being." That is not a universally accepted thing.

                        Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                        To claim otherwise is hogwash* and deserves no serious response. To try to redefine "human being" as equivalent to "person" seems...highly suspect, to me.

                        *I'd use a stronger word but I'd get in trouble.
                        If it "deserves no serious response" to you, then it would be folly of me to respond. You apparently will not consider any alternative point of view.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          I think pro-choice advocates would suggest that the syllogism fails on Premise 2. They acknowledge that the zygote/fetus is human - as they would that a thumb is human. They dispute that it is a human being, which is a philosophical claim, not a scientific one.
                          But a thumb is not human, it is a part of a human. A fetus has all the genetic material that makes a human being. And a human being by definition is: any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            You didn't - but that is the implication. "Human" is a scientific principle. When something that is human is a distinct "being" is not.



                            You and I are in agreement on this.



                            We are not in agreement on this. You and I (apparently) agree on what it takes to be a "human being." That is not a universally accepted thing.



                            If it "deserves no serious response" to you, then it would be folly of me to respond. You apparently will not consider any alternative point of view.
                            Are you going to argue that a fetus is just a clump of cells, or part of the woman's body, or that it's a vestigial organ? At this point I expect you to.

                            It doesn't deserve a serious response because it's bollocks. Whether or not it's universally agreed to is irrelevant; I'd remind you that the Flat Earth Society exists, people fervently believe in the Mandela Effect, etc. People believe lots of things.

                            Oh, and thanks for the characterization in your last comment. I have considered the alternative point of view on this; I find it sorely lacking.
                            I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              But a thumb is not human, it is a part of a human.
                              A thumb is most definitely human. Examine the DNA and you will find it contains the entire human genome. It is not a human being, but it is most definitely human (assuming it is part of a human being or was amputated from one).

                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              A fetus has all the genetic material that makes a human being.
                              So does a thumb.

                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              And a human being by definition is: any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.
                              Agreed. The question is, what constitutes an "individual." When we delve into that, there are different definitions. Indeed, my own definition is not universally accepted. Some would suggest that fertilization and implantation is not adequate - that individual sustainability is also required. Others would suggest that implantation is not required, and fertilization is adequate. When an "individual" begins is not universally agreed upon. As a consequence, what is and is not moral is not agreed upon.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                If there's no individual there, then why are you opposed to abortion?
                                I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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