Originally posted by QuantaFille
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Abortion Is Equal To Murder?
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is just stupid FF, even for you. Do you really believe that a baby one day away from birth is not human? What is it? A plant?
Imbued with spirit means air breathing. When it breathes it is a being.Last edited by firstfloor; 05-15-2018, 03:31 PM.
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostHuman BEING, seer. It has to be a person to qualify as a being. Under construction or sitting on the launch pad is not the same thing.
Imbued with spirit means air breathing. When it breathes it is a being.
Is that a life?
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Originally posted by seer View PostThis is a syllogism by a cyber friend from New Zealand, Bnonn Tennant. I think the logic is solid.
1.It is wrong to kill another human being for personal reasons (because it is murder)
2.A human zygote or fetus is a human being
3.Therefore, it is wrong to kill a human zygote or fetus for personal reasons
https://bnonn.com/why-abortion-is-ir...ent-to-murder/
For myself, I agree that the implanted zygote/fetus is a human being and it is immoral to destroy it with very few exceptions (basically the same exceptions that apply to any human life).Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-15-2018, 04:29 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhy are you calling God stupid?
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI think abortion advocates would suggest that the syllogism fails on Premise 2. They acknowledge that the zygote/fetus is human - as they would that a thumb is human. They dispute that it is a human being, which is a philosophical claim, not a scientific one.
For myself, I agree that the implanted zygote/fetus is a human being and it is immoral to destroy it with very few exceptions (basically the same exceptions that apply to any human life).
How is that a philosophical claim? A human fetus is a human being; it is not human in the sense that a thumb is human. Or, it's human in the noun sense as well as the adjective sense, not just the adjective sense. To claim otherwise is nonsense.I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.
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Originally posted by Zymologist View Post(assuming you're not in devil's advocate mode for the bolded statement)
How is that a philosophical claim?
Originally posted by Zymologist View PostA human fetus is a human being; it is not human in the sense that a thumb is human. Or, it's human in the noun sense as well as the adjective sense, not just the adjective sense. To claim otherwise is nonsense.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post"Human" is a matter of examining the DNA and determining if it is or is not human. Both the thumb and the zygote are "human." "Human being" as to do with personhood (i.e., when do we have a distinct person). Personhood is not a scientific claim - it is a philosophical one that takes into account what a "person" is and when it begins. If a "person" requires the ability to reason, you get one answer. If it involves the ability to breathe, you get another. If it involves the ability to function independently, you get yet another answer.
Apparently to you. To me, a distinct human being exists when a being with a unique/distinct DNA is on a path to viability (i.e., implantation). But some say it happens when you have a discernible heartbeat. Some say it is when you have a discernible EEG. Some it is when you have a life capable of independent living (i.e., breathing, eating, etc.). Same say it is when you have a unique DNA only. Every definition has its strengths/weaknesses. They all depend on the definition of "human being" rather than merely the definition of "human."
A fetus is a human being in the sense that it is a distinct member of the species (unlike a severed thumb; hence, noun sense vs adjective sense). This is undeniable. To claim otherwise is hogwash* and deserves no serious response. To try to redefine "human being" as equivalent to "person" seems...highly suspect, to me.
*I'd use a stronger word but I'd get in trouble.Last edited by Zymologist; 05-15-2018, 04:42 PM.I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostI never mentioned "personhood." Why does "human being" have to equal "person?"
Originally posted by Zymologist View PostA fetus is a human being in the sense that it is a distinct member of the species (unlike a severed thumb; hence, noun sense vs adjective sense).
Originally posted by Zymologist View PostThis is undeniable.
Originally posted by Zymologist View PostTo claim otherwise is hogwash* and deserves no serious response. To try to redefine "human being" as equivalent to "person" seems...highly suspect, to me.
*I'd use a stronger word but I'd get in trouble.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI think pro-choice advocates would suggest that the syllogism fails on Premise 2. They acknowledge that the zygote/fetus is human - as they would that a thumb is human. They dispute that it is a human being, which is a philosophical claim, not a scientific one.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou didn't - but that is the implication. "Human" is a scientific principle. When something that is human is a distinct "being" is not.
You and I are in agreement on this.
We are not in agreement on this. You and I (apparently) agree on what it takes to be a "human being." That is not a universally accepted thing.
If it "deserves no serious response" to you, then it would be folly of me to respond. You apparently will not consider any alternative point of view.
It doesn't deserve a serious response because it's bollocks. Whether or not it's universally agreed to is irrelevant; I'd remind you that the Flat Earth Society exists, people fervently believe in the Mandela Effect, etc. People believe lots of things.
Oh, and thanks for the characterization in your last comment. I have considered the alternative point of view on this; I find it sorely lacking.I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut a thumb is not human, it is a part of a human.
Originally posted by seer View PostA fetus has all the genetic material that makes a human being.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd a human being by definition is: any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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